The Mama Making Podcast

Liz Gray, LCSW | Infertility, Advocacy, and the Importance of Trauma-Informed Care

• Jessica Lamb, Liz Grey • Season 3 • Episode 113

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In this episode of The Mama Making Podcast, host Jessica Lamb chats with licensed clinical social worker and infertility advocate Liz Gray about the emotional complexities of navigating infertility and the medical system. Liz shares her personal story, from facing dismissive care to finding trauma-informed providers who offered compassion and understanding.

They explore the importance of patient advocacy, the impact of trauma in reproductive care, and the need for better support throughout the journey—from infertility to pregnancy and postpartum. Whether you're in the midst of fertility challenges or supporting someone who is, this episode offers validation, hope, and tangible ways to seek more compassionate care.

You can connect with Liz:

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Jessica Lamb (00:57)
Hello everyone and welcome to the Momma Making Podcast. If you're new here, I'm your host Jessica. If not, then welcome back. Today I'm very excited to have Liz Gray on the podcast. Liz is a licensed clinical social worker and an infertility advocate. Today we're gonna talk a little bit more about finding trauma informed providers, how to do that, and then how you can kind of advocate for yourself through navigating a fertility journey. So Liz, welcome.

Liz Gray (01:23)
Thank you so much. I'm really excited to be here.

Jessica Lamb (01:26)
I'm excited to have you. So tell us a little bit about yourself, who you are, where you're from, whatever you're comfortable sharing.

Liz Gray (01:31)
Yeah, well, we're neighbors, apparently. So I am, I live right outside of Chicago, Illinois with my husband, Minnie Golden Doodle, and newest member of our family, my 10 month old son. And I'm a licensed clinical social worker. I work for a small group practice. I do a lot of trauma therapy. I'm certified in EMDR, which is eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. It's a mouthful. And let's see, I'm

Infertility Warrior, I'm a highly sensitive person and I'm the co-creator of the Trauma Informed Internal Health Directory and Network that I'm sure we'll get to a little bit later.

Jessica Lamb (02:09)
Yeah, so you've got a lot of credentials behind you. Where do you want to start?

Liz Gray (02:15)
maybe sharing a bit of my story of what led me to create this network because there's such a need for finding trauma informed providers, especially for someone who is either going through infertility who has a trauma history or

Jessica Lamb (02:37)
Yeah, yeah, share whatever you're comfortable sharing.

Liz Gray (02:40)
Yeah, I was thinking this morning, I was practicing in the car, you know, what do I want to say? Where do I want to start my story? So we'll rewind to the end of 2022. And, you know, my husband and I weren't even necessarily looking for an infertility clinic. It was more, I heard about this clinic that was near our house and I thought, huh, let's just go.

let's just go get checked out because, you know, we weren't conceiving and we went and met with this doctor who she's TikTok famous. I, you know, went through infantile went through IVF herself and has a couple of kids. And I thought, this is going to be the, the, you know, the most amazing person to work with. And I, while she was a great medical doctor, the way that she treated

me and my husband was, it was pretty awful. There were definitely, like the entire process felt really rushed. There wasn't a lot of care or compassion or sensitivity. And she was really dismissive of my trauma history and some of the requests that I had made that I think are very reasonable requests for someone to make.

she really was not the provider that I thought that she was. And I don't get angry very often, but when I do, there is a fire that gets lit under me. And when that happens, I act. I have to do something about it. And so I really, like I got just this motivation, this passion, this...

internal something telling me I need to do something about this because if I am going through this and me who knows a lot of resources and has a not only my own personal history trauma but I'm a trauma therapist I knew that if I was experiencing the treatment the way that I had that so many other women going through infertility going through you know their pregnancy any kind of care you know I think as a woman especially is it's really

vulnerable and uncomfortable and painful can be physically and emotionally. And so that is kind of what sparked just this this fuel for me to kind of enter into this world.

Jessica Lamb (04:57)
Yeah, I think there's a natural thought process that like, a fertility provider is going to be kind and compassionate.

Jessica Lamb (05:05)
So I imagine it's natural to think this is gonna be a provider who is gonna care for me the way that I feel like I should be.

Liz Gray (05:14)
Yeah, you would think. And I thought that too. And so it's really disappointing when that person isn't that way and really rushes the process and makes you feel like a number.

Jessica Lamb (05:25)
Yeah, that's really hard. Do you want to share what came next after this experience?

Liz Gray (05:31)
Yeah, so the day that we found out that the round of IUI didn't work and that I wasn't pregnant was the same conversation where I had made some requests and she was really dismissive. I had a retreat planned. Actually, I think it was that day I was traveling, either that day or the next day, but I'm pretty sure it was that day. I was part of this business coaching program and the person who led it,

I had known her for years. She is a therapist herself. so just such a warm, welcoming community. My best friend who lives out of state was going to meet me there anyway. So, and my husband was coming with, so he could kind of work and get away a little bit. So it actually felt like, even though it was awful timing to leave, it was kind of perfect timing to leave also. And during this retreat, you know, it's a business thing, but also like it's personal growth and healing. During the ceremony, I mean, I just...

kind of had this moment where I basically kind of had this big exhale cry moment where I said this business, I'd been working on a different business for a while. I was like, it's not working. It's not, I don't feel it in my heart. I said, I need to do something with infertility advocacy. And that was really the moment that everything changed. And so I started, you know, I

created a website, I started to connect with other people, I decided to switch providers because I did not want to stay at that clinic. And so I actually decided to interview my providers because when we were in the process of switching,

fertility clinics, I knew what I was looking for going into it this time, which I can talk about a little bit. And so I just, it was just kind of a turning point in my life. And we ended up choosing one of the providers. This was January of 2023. And just to give you a really quick timeline.

I did three egg retrievals. We ended up doing IVF. So I did them really quickly, March, April, and May. We did a frozen egg transfer in July and I got pregnant the first time and had my baby in April of 2024.

Jessica Lamb (07:40)
It's so funny because it seems like the process with the first clinic seemed rushed and not what you had hoped for, but then everything wound up happening pretty quickly as well. So it's an interesting dichotomy there.

Liz Gray (07:54)
It is. And I think the difference though is I felt like I had more choice with this doctor because from the very beginning, I knew what I was looking for. So I went in and I had a consultation and I asked, said, how are you trauma informed? Can you tell me what you do to make survivors feel safe going through this really hard process? And that was really important to me because

I personally, and I know that people have very different thoughts and opinions, and so it really depends on the person themselves. But for me, I wanted a pop-up in my chart. I wanted all the staff who I worked with to know about my history so that they would just have a little extra sensitivity. Because I think in the medical world, as we know, it can, you know, it's not the most sensitive or, you know, you're not always seen as like a

person and human being. And even my nurse who was absolutely amazing, I adored her, would call me sometimes and give me all the numbers, the results from, you know, my blood work. And I didn't really understand what she was saying at the beginning because it's all just like numbers and jargon. And I'm like, what does this mean? You know? And so I think oftentimes for someone who is working in the medical field, they forget that

us as patients are like, it's a whole new language for us. So really what I needed was just for things to be explained to me, to feel like I could take my time, have questions answered, make decisions. I know, I know we talked about it going fast again. I personally felt like as long as I'm in this and I'm taking all of these very difficult to take, you know, medications because it's, it's multiple injections a day.

And I think I counted they're like.

five or six different ways that I was taking medication and multiple times every day for months at a time. I mean, it just, it takes over your life. And I thought, you know what? As long as I'm doing this, let's just kind of keep going and going and going.

Jessica Lamb (09:55)
Yeah, I think all that to say it's definitely a testament to finding the provider that's right for you. And I think, I imagine feeling like it was going really fast, kind of hinged on feeling like you didn't have all the information or a lot of choice or collaboration. I can certainly imagine being like, hang on.

wait a second, this is going really quickly, when you don't have the full information. So I imagine that there's definitely something to finding a provider that's like, okay, I understand your needs, I'm collaborative with you in any medical sense, but in this specific area, I imagine it lended to you mentally, but then also physically feeling like comfortable and safe and.

confident in the ability to continue to move forward at whatever pace it wound up being.

Liz Gray (10:47)
100%. When we met with that first doctor to who ended up doing a round of IUI with us, the day that she gave us the results and recommended that we do IUI happened to be the first day of my cycle, which again, going into this, why would I have an idea? I had no idea that CD1 is the, like that is what everything is based on the first day of your cycle. And so we had to make a decision that day.

whether or not to do a round of IUI. And we did, we ended up doing it. So I had to go in that same day and start all the blood work and testing. And I also think just because I had never done it all before, it was so new. Even though IVF was, I do feel like very different world than doing IUI, kind of intensified. One of my good friends was going through it for a second time right around, she was a couple of weeks ahead of me in the process.

this time, but she was the most helpful person. So definitely having a trusted friend was really helpful. And, you know, I will say that after the first retrieval, we had planned to do, it's a procedure or the protocol called duo stim, which essentially instead of waiting for my cycle to start again, naturally after the first retrieval,

we go right into preparing for another retrieval. So essentially, it's doing two retrievals in one cycle. And we had planned to do that, but my body had a reaction after the first retrieval. I got OHSS, which is, I'm going to forget exactly what it is, but essentially, overstimulation of my, or ovary, overstimulation.

I'm butchering the name of it. But my body needed some time to heal and recover and rest. So we actually decided to not go right into that and waited until my body was naturally ready.

Jessica Lamb (12:35)
Yeah, that makes sense.

So when it came to looking for this new provider, after you had that first experience, what were some of the things that were on, what were your interview questions? What was on your list? And did you have a vision for what you wanted this provider to look like? Or was it kind of open and you

kind of let that provider come in and knew like, okay, this is the one.

Liz Gray (12:58)
I was pretty open. I mean, I wasn't expecting any specific answer. Pretty soon after that, I started interviewing midwives as well because I knew that when I was pregnant, I did want to go to a birth center instead of a hospital. And with them also, I didn't go in saying like, okay, they better say this, this, and this, otherwise they're not trauma-informed.

It wasn't that, it was more of just a feeling that I got based on how they took the question, how they thought about it. And so for finding a new fertility clinic, think the fact, so I really just left it open-ended. know, I'm, and I,

Actually, the clinic that I chose, I believe they asked about trauma history on the paperwork. I'm not 100 % positive, but I'm pretty sure there was a place to share that information. And if there wasn't, I definitely made a note. And usually what I do is I put, you know, they ask for like any notes or thoughts for your doctor. And I'm pretty sure I said, please ask me about this when you meet me. And I typically do that with, whether it's a therapist or any kind of medical doctor.

because I want them to know. And it's kind of sad that me as the patient has to be the one to like, to say, please ask me. But it, to me, it shows that they've actually read through my chart, that maybe they've had a little time to think about their approach. And I really, I'm not trying to trick anyone or throw anyone off. In fact, I would much rather have a person, you know, to know that they really are thoughtful and how they, how they communicate with me. And so I think the fact that

They, I'd already been given a place to share a little bit of my history on paper. And then, you know, there were, my gosh, probably six to eight people on this virtual call. You know, the first clinic we had gone to, our consultation was Zoom and it was just with our doctor. So here I am expecting, it's just gonna be one person, maybe the doctor and nurse. And there's like eight people that show up and they're all, you know, different. And so it was definitely overwhelming. And I think,

that would have been helpful to know ahead of time. Again, it was fine that there were people, that there were a lot, because it also felt like, there's a lot of people on the team who care about me. And it's like, wow, there's a lot of people here. And I, okay, wasn't expecting this. So yeah, it was really the way that I, so I just kind of asked, know, can you tell me like, how are you trauma informed? I do have a history of trauma and I want to make sure that I feel safe and comfortable.

for this and it's been a couple of years, but I know one thing they said was putting, they could put a pop-up on my chart. You know, they asked if I'd like that and I said, yes. They also said that they would have me work with a dedicated nurse, the one who I was talking about earlier. And that was great because it felt like this doctor had an idea of which nurse might be a really good match with me.

because oftentimes, again, at least in the other clinic I was at and what I've heard from a lot of people is sometimes you get different calls from different nurses. might go in to the, because sometimes it's, you know, going to the clinic once a week, twice a week, you're going in a lot. And so it can feel really fragmented if there are different nurses and you know, it just, again, it's such an impersonal, overwhelming situation that no one really wants to be in.

to then go to a clinic and feel like, oh, they don't even know my name. They don't know who I am. They don't know my story. I mean, it just adds insult to injury. So I think the fact that my doctor said, oh, she's not here, but I'm going to have this nurse give you a call so that she can talk to you, you can meet her, that felt so supportive and really truly something that I think should be the standard. And I think

just, she also, this doctor, it's not the norm. She gave me her cell phone number, which she does with all of her patients, but that felt really helpful. And, cause again, it can be really hard, especially in a big clinic to, to, you can just feel like I'm calling and going to a void, like who do I talk to? Where do I go? So, you know, there were also things that I, this clinic wasn't perfect. There were definitely a couple,

of things that happen. I don't know if it would be helpful for me to share some some parts that I felt like they could do work.

Jessica Lamb (17:05)
Yeah, absolutely.

Liz Gray (17:05)
Um, I had to get a saline ultrasound at one point and it was a different nurse. So not my, uh, nurse who I knew. And so, you know, I'm on the table and stirrups and the nurse, you know, knocked and came in and said, hi, I'm so and so nurse. Um, I have a student here with me and she's going to be observing. that okay? And it wasn't okay with me, but I, I froze. I didn't know. I mean,

I didn't know the nurse and didn't have that relationship with her to be able to really advocate for myself. You know, I don't think she knew my history, even though she should have. And it's such a difficult place to be, you know, like you're undressed from the waist down and covered by a flimsy thin see-through sheet, essentially. And so that...

even though there was, you know, quote unquote consent that was asked of me, I didn't really feel like I had the place to say no. And so what I would have liked was ahead of time for, you know, the nurse to have come in and introduced herself to me because she didn't know me and to say, you know, I have a student who's observing, you know, honestly, 24 to 48 hours ahead of time would have been ideal. However, I know that that is not.

was going to be possible. But at least some time, while I'm still dressed, while I feel like I can, you know, even for it said, I'm gonna, I'm gonna let you get undressed. Why don't you think about it? When I knock, I'm gonna I'll come back and I'll ask you if it feels okay, if you'd like her to come in or not. And just know you can change your mind at any time too. So even if you say yes, and then you decide no, you just let us know. And I think you know, doing that also with any kind of

ultrasound, cervical check, you know, for someone who's pregnant, letting the patient know, even if you say yes right now, it's okay to say, it's okay to say no, it's okay to slow down, less pressure, and to really, we need to hear that. We need to know that every single time.

Jessica Lamb (19:04)
Yeah, it's great that they it seems like they're very client facing, like client forward and in terms of like the policies that they already policies and options that they already have set up for every patient. I'm all about patient experience. And I think that it sounds like they have a good set of

protocols for everybody to be able to say, hey, here's where I'm at. But then also, as always, places for improvement where, and each person is gonna be different. And so being able to kind of get ahead of what might be uncomfortable or what might be difficult for someone to navigate, I think is always a good.

place to start in terms of figuring out like, how do we as providers become more aware? So I'm sure it was super helpful to be able to walk into a place where they kind of already know a little bit. They have kind of a flag up to say, hey, we need to handle, maybe handle is not the best word. We need to...

Liz Gray (20:07)
interact with care extra.

Jessica Lamb (20:08)
Yeah,

just utilize more care and compassion with this client. Not because they wouldn't otherwise, but because it's needed sometimes and not everyone's the same. So yeah, I think it's really great that you were able to feel very quickly like, okay, this place cares about me. Despite some of the things that could, the room for improvement, I'm sure,

going into somewhere that was like, care about you from the beginning and already have these things in place was really helpful to move forward, I imagine.

Liz Gray (20:41)
Absolutely. And I'll share one other example of something that happened, but there was a repair for it. like I said, we did three retrievals. So that's, you know, in the, go to the operation room and I was put under anesthesia for that. For the frozen transfer, I was given a Valium, but I was fully awake.

and my husband had never been back there with me. So, you know, we kind of get ushered into this room. He jokes he calls it kind of like an elementary school cafeteria because the O.R. is attached to the lab. And, you know, they're having me kind of bend down and there's like metal trays and they're having me like share my name and, you know, multiple times, which is a good thing. We want to make sure it's the, you know, there's no mix ups. But he had

never been here before. So, you know, he's kind of overwhelmed. You know, it's an overstimulating environment, especially knowing that, you know, his wife is about to have this procedure. And, you know, I, of course, was nervous and had just had taken the valium. So I was a little bit kind of loopy out of it. Like, I remember, but also I think just my my memories are probably not as they're probably a little more fuzzy than they would be otherwise. So everyone

don't remember if everyone went around and introduced themselves or maybe it was the doctor who said, know, this is who everyone is. But essentially everyone in the room was introduced to us, their name and their position or their title, like I'm the doctor, I'm the nurse, I'm the whoever it is. And there was a man in the back corner of the room who was never introduced. He was the only male other than my husband in there. He...

had like a pen and a paper, maybe a notepad and was like never made eye contact. He looked very serious. It was kind of uncomfortable. And my husband and I both noticed him. But again, that was one situation where I kind of felt uncomfortable, but didn't know what to say, how to say it. I remember thinking like, who's that? But then I kind of forgot about it. And

So he was there the entire procedure. Luckily he was behind me. And so, you know, I didn't feel like physically I was necessarily exposed to him, but it still was uncomfortable to say the least. I did forget about that actually until my husband brought it up. think it, I don't remember if it was a few days later, a week later, he mentioned it and I kind of started laughing and I was like, yeah, like I totally forgot about that weird man in the room.

And then the more I started thinking about it, I'm like, wait a minute, that's actually not okay. No one ever asked us if it was okay to have an observer. No one introduced him. We didn't have the option to say no. Again, very similar to this other situation. And the more I started to think about it, the more upset I got. And once again, it was...

If this is happening to me, it is happening to so many other people, but in other ways that are probably more direct, you know, physical harm that may be done. And so I actually, called up, no, I had, talked to my nurse. I talked to another nurse who kind of oversaw everything for me. I was pretty upset and asked them, you know,

to kind of what do we do to escalate this? What do we do so that, again, not only does this not only happen to me again, but I don't want this to happen to other people. And they were able to get me in touch with the clinical director, clinical supervisor, I forgot her exact title, who called me. It was either that week or the next week, but it happened pretty quickly. And she was so.

apologetic about the situation and she had already looked into what had happened. And so I was able to talk when she came on the phone with me, she was able to tell me who this person was and get really apologized for the lack of transparency and communication with that. And, that's when I started talking her and saying, you know, I'm really passionate about trauma informed care. Like, this is something I want to start.

doing, going and doing speaking, sharing my own story, sharing my experience, you know, from the lens of being a trauma survivor, being an infertility warrior and a clinician. And she said, send me your email. I want to connect and maybe have you come in and do a training for our staff. It never actually ended up happening. I think just there's a lot of changes that have happened at the clinic and.

Good reminder though, I should follow up again. But still just the fact that they seemed open to it, that I actually met with her and another one of the staff a couple times to talk about what I would want included in this training, what I would offer in terms of kind of training, not just for the doctors, but for all the staff. Because I think that when it comes to trauma-informed care, especially in a

in a medical setting, everyone needs to have at least a very,

just general understanding of what trauma is, how it presents itself, what they can do to not only be sensitive to anyone walking through the door, but also to be aware of how their own histories and how their own stuff, know, whether it's like waking up and having a bad day or having a trauma history that is, it gets activated maybe by the work they do, whatever it is that the way that they show up is going to impact.

patients and clients. So it's everyone from the front desk staff to people who work in the lab to the nurses, the ultrasound techs, the doctors, everyone essentially needs to have at least a basic understanding.

Jessica Lamb (26:10)
Yeah, and we'll talk a little bit more about the work that you do more in depth, but I think it's really incredible to be able to advocate for yourself in those areas because, mean, you're a clinician, you have a very different understanding of trauma history and how to be more informed than the average person. So I think obviously a natural fit to be able to both give your, your,

clinical expertise, but then also like your lived experience as a patient of theirs or client. But I think it also goes for those who maybe haven't approached a place in their life where they're ready to address or talk about their trauma and maybe don't know where they need the support or they need the more informed consent.

or whatever it might be, not everyone's in a place in their life with trauma to be like, this is what I need, here's where I'm at. So for you to be able to say, here are the things that I've needed or here are the things that would be helpful at a very basic level, I think allows for a better patient experience for those people as well, because they're already implementing some of these protocols to make sure that everyone across the board is being treated with a trauma-informed mindset.

Liz Gray (27:25)
Yes, and whether or not someone has a history of trauma, trauma-informed care is going to benefit everyone. And when I first started the whole infertility process, I did a lot of research because, I mean, that's how I function when I'm, you know, overwhelmed by something or don't know it. Like, I do try to do what I can. And I knew that

Jessica Lamb (27:32)
Yes, absolutely.

Liz Gray (27:52)
lot of things would be activated for me because I have a history of sexual trauma. I knew that going through the infertility process would not be easy and that there would be extra challenges because of my history. And so I looked, I searched, I tried to find papers, articles, blog posts, programs out there that really talked about the intersection between the two and there was almost nothing. And that's actually something that

I'm working on now is a basic blog post, but then also maybe some trainings. And I have a partner on this who were figuring out together kind of what else can we create to let other survivors know that they have a voice, that there's other people who have been through it, that there's support because again, having a trauma history is, is painful and hard enough and that impacts every

every area of life, going through infertility impacts every area of life. And then when you put the two together, it's like exponentially going to impact all of it. And so I felt very alone at the beginning because honestly, it wasn't until very recently that I connected with someone who has a similar history of very different ways that we were able to have our children.

But the fact that we both had some of these shared experiences and histories and are both clinicians, we think there needs to be more out there for support.

Jessica Lamb (29:14)
Yeah, absolutely.

And did you ever find out who the man was in the room?

Liz Gray (29:18)
It was either, I can't remember if it was a student or a visiting doctor.

Jessica Lamb (29:22)
Okay, I was wondering maybe if it was a physician from another practice or something. Yeah.

Liz Gray (29:26)
Yeah,

it might have been, but again, they were, like I said, very apologetic. That shouldn't have happened.

Jessica Lamb (29:35)
Yeah, definitely.

So at this point in your journey, you've been able to find a provider in a clinic that seems to mesh really well, despite some of the off some things that went a little off track. But tell me how the rest of your experience was working with this clinic and what are some of the things that you stuck out to you as like, this went really well or here's where I feel like it could have gone better.

Liz Gray (29:58)
One piece that I thought went well is, so it's interesting because, you know, going through the infertility process, like I was going to this, look, to the clinic multiple times a week at some points. And I didn't know this before I got pregnant, but I was still having to do the injections of progesterone and oil, I think until I was either 10 or 12 weeks pregnant.

So it doesn't just stop as soon as you get pregnant. And so I was continuing to have to go to the clinic. The positive thing is that I was able to get a couple of ultrasounds. And I believe at one point I was like getting them weekly, which was so nice because, you know, I was getting to see my little nugget who was growing. And it's a really interesting dynamic when you switch from.

when you graduate, they call it graduating the clinic is suddenly I'm kind of part of the almost like the general population of pregnant women. Even though I felt like, wait a minute, like I'm, I feel kind of different because the way in which my son was conceived is different. And I was at a birth center with him.

a team of midwives and you for them it's like, okay, great. You know, you're a new patient. We'll see you in four to six weeks. And I'm like, wait, what? Like I'm used to getting an ultrasound and going in every single week. And then it's suddenly like, you're just dropped into the middle of the ocean. And so I had asked my, I say begged, but you know, I very nicely asked my clinic. I was like, can you let me have like one more appointment and get one more ultrasound to help ease the transition? And they said, yes.

So that felt, again, I wish that I didn't have to be the one to kind of advocate for that, but there wasn't a lot of pushback. was like, yeah, of course we could do that. So that felt really comforting for me. But there really isn't a lot of continuity of care between infertility clinics and then either OB-GYN offices or midwife practices. So I really think that there's a lot of work to do in that because...

With trauma-informed care, having collaboration, communication, transparency is huge. And I finally felt like, okay, maybe I'm kind of knowing what to expect here at this fertility clinic. But then, you know, being part of it, like I said, being pregnant, everything was then new. was suddenly I'm navigating this whole new world again and growing human inside of me.

Yeah, so I wish that there was more support around that transition because it can feel very

scary to take that leap.

Jessica Lamb (32:30)
Yeah, and I always talk about how interesting it is that there's no information out there about becoming pregnant. And so that like preconception space is so limited in what you're able to gather information wise. And then we so quickly, for those of us who are able to get pregnant, so quickly moving on to like the next thing that you almost don't like process that timeframe.

enough to be like, hey, for the next person, here's what you gotta do. Like you're in these message boards and like glued to your whatever app you're using if you're using one. And we so quickly forget about that timeframe that I feel like your experience with infertility, infertility treatments is that like times a million where you're like so deeply.

entrenched in this experience and then in the blink of an eye you're on to the next thing and you're not necessarily treated with as much care as general as I could say it, that you're not treated with the same level of care that you are through your fertility journey. So I imagine that that's really hard to process and move forward from. Obviously you're very excited to do it, but I think there's a little bit that's like

left on the cutting room floor, if you will, that we don't really process at all, I imagine.

Liz Gray (33:49)
Yeah, when I think about my journey, it's interesting to feel like I was always kind of on my own little island, like going through infertility. did connect with some other people going through it at the same time. But then when I became pregnant, it was this interesting dynamic because of course I still felt like I was part of the infertility community. But it does create a shift in relationships when one

friend, one person does get pregnant and someone else doesn't. It's, know, for me, I felt like so extra cautious about what I would share because I didn't want to add any more hurt or harm or, you know, make, make anyone feel bad. And so that was really challenging. And, you know, I felt different than the other people who I was meeting who were pregnant, who had conceived naturally because it felt like

It was, I mean, a year, over a year that it took us and multiple procedures and so much ups and downs. you know, this, I'm just like, just talking about the tip of the iceberg. mean, there's so much more, just the uncertainty, the changes in relationships, the financial piece of it, everything, the impact on your body. But,

Yeah, so it just felt really like, sure, we're both pregnant at the same time, but the way that we got here is very different. And then after I had my son, I actually, so I had planned to have him at a birth center. I did start labor in there, but I did have to get transferred to the local hospital. And after I did have a 57 hour labor and had a C-section, it was never an emergency, but he just, he was stuck and didn't want to come out.

So we needed some intervention. but I think having not having prepared for C-section really at all, having that and then postpartum depression, I then felt different than people who had had, who didn't have C-section or who weren't navigating, postpartum depression. So I, like I said, it's, it's been really interesting because there's a part of me that just so longs for deep connection. And I feel like.

throughout my entire journey of becoming a parent, there's been like little bits of time where I felt like, I'm in the same, like I'm going through this around the same time as someone else. Like we can connect. And then there's been other times where I feel very different.

Jessica Lamb (36:03)
Yeah, I imagine the feeling of being othered almost that like we're in this together, but very parallel and different paths. I imagine it's really challenging. I think becoming pregnant and being a mom, a new mom is so isolating to begin with, but then also to have this other experience to still need to unpack I think is doubly challenging. I imagine.

Liz Gray (36:29)
No, you're right on. And being a highly sensitive person, I have felt othered my whole life. So this was just adding on to that. to go back, I forgot to say this, but going through infertility, like I said, the way that I felt othered was having this history of trauma on top of it. it just, it was really challenging in a lot of ways.

Jessica Lamb (36:50)
Yeah, were some of the things that were helpful to you? And obviously you can talk about it from a different perspective as a clinician, but what were some of the things that were helpful to you in this area of feeling like super isolated and alone? What things helped you not just get through it, but like feel a little bit better about where you were at?

Liz Gray (37:11)
having wonderful therapists and providers. I think a little bit before I started the whole infertility process, I actually switched therapists and she is, I'm still working with her, she's a PMHC, so perinatal mental health certified. And so she specializes in all of this. So really just to have someone who gets it is...

and who specializes in infertility and new parenthood and pregnancy was huge. I also joined a virtual support group led by another PMHC. It was called Infertility or Pregnancy After Infertility. And that helped me.

the kind of the piece I was talking about feeling different than other pregnant women. It was like, OK, all of us had this in common. We were all pregnant and had been through the infertility journey. And so there are just things that we could really relate to each other on that that we couldn't with other other women who weren't who hadn't gone through infertility. I also did. Acupuncture, I went to the chiropractor, I had.

regular massages. I found really amazing providers. I think having a doula, my acupuncturist also was my birth doula. And so she also works with my husband and has seen my son too. So it's, you know, really finding the right people who not only specialize in the thing that you're looking for, but who you click with on a personal level, I think is so important. And there were a couple of providers over the years who

worked with, maybe it was once, maybe it was more tense than that, who I just... sometimes there's not even a reason. Sometimes it's just like I don't know what it is, but something in my gut says this doesn't feel right. And I just want to encourage anyone, whether something big has happened that you can like name and write down and say this is it, or if it's just a feeling, that's enough. That is enough to say, no, like that person's not for me. And whether...

you as a patient have a conversation with that provider and say this is why I decided I no longer to come. You don't owe it to them. You owe it to yourself to, I'm gonna say fire a provider in whatever way feels best for you.

Jessica Lamb (39:26)
Yeah, I'm all about finding your village. And I know a lot of people see that as like, mom friends who get it are like good babysitter network. part of it for me is finding those providers that align with you, not only ideologically, but also, or not just with their modality, but ideologically as well. Like you just mesh and it works and.

if you're looking forward to going and chatting. And I think that that's so important too, to find people, providers specifically, because you're seeing them so often, that really mesh with you. And if they don't, then you have the option to find someone else. But I think this is a really good time to kind of chat a little bit about how we find those people that kind of mesh. Do you have any suggestions or?

ways people can kind of find providers who match well with them.

Liz Gray (40:20)
Why yes, I do, because I created a directory for this. And one other piece that really helped me was connecting with, she's now a friend and my business partner, her name's Olivia. While I was on this whole journey, we connected and we just, the energy between us was so strong and we had such a passion for connecting people to trauma-informed providers that.

We, within a few months of meeting, we created a business together and started the Trauma Informed Maternal Health Directory. And so that was also something that I was growing literally at the same time as I was growing a human in me. And it's called, you just go to maternaltraumasupport.com and it'll link you to the directory. But what we're trying to do is grow this network of providers who are trauma-informed.

to take the searching, the legwork, the really hard digging through, kind weeding through all these providers who may or may not be trauma-informed, and we're saying, hey, we've already done the work for you. Like, we have checked their credentials because we do make sure that any provider listed is either licensed or pre-licensed in their state, or if they're like a doula or a lactation consultant, they may not necessarily need a...

master's degree in their field, but they do have to go through a legitimate certification program. So we do check their credentials and experience and we ask every provider to fill out the section at a minimum that says, how are you trauma informed? Because we want patients, clients going to the pages and being able to read it as if that person's talking to you. So I'll go to, you know, this profile and see, okay, this is how this therapist or this

doctor or this pelvic floor PT, this is how they work with patients. This is what they do as a standard of care. I don't have to worry about asking for these things because I know that they're going to do it no matter what.

Jessica Lamb (42:11)
Yeah, and I love that for everyone. I think everyone should have the option to see whoever they want and know that their best interest and care is in the hands of someone understands and has had these trainings, but then also is obviously passionate about what they do. So I think what you guys are doing is really incredible. Yeah.

Liz Gray (42:14)
Yes.

Thank you.

And I would say one other thing too is when possible to do a consultation with a new provider. Oftentimes I can speak for therapists, not all therapists, some just say, let's schedule a first paid session. But I personally like to do consultations, 15, 20 minutes with a potential client so that we can both ask questions and see if it feels like a good fit. So I really think that when there's a possibility of doing that,

to ask about it. And remember that it's okay. You can see someone one time, you can see them five times, you can see them years and still switch providers.

Jessica Lamb (43:07)
Yeah, I think it's really incredible to be able to have one single place that you can go to to find a provider who you just don't have to second guess

I would love to have you share where people can find you, socials, website, well you mentioned the website, but socials, and then anything else you guys have coming up.

Liz Gray (43:27)
Yeah, so on Instagram, I'd say that's where we're the most active. It's just at maternal trauma support. So pretty easy. Like I said, website is maternal trauma support.com or to get directly to the directory, it's directory dot maternal trauma support dot com. But you can get to either And we do.

It ends up being on average about a monthly workshop called the Sunday Series Workshop. And all these workshops are free to attend.

Jessica Lamb (43:52)
Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being on and being so open to share your story. I'm looking forward to diving into the directory and your socials just to be more informed myself. But I appreciate you being here. Thank you so much.