The Mama Making Podcast

Kendra Vargas | Navigating & Finding Peace through Infertility

• Jessica Lamb, Kendra Vargas • Season 3 • Episode 114

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In this episode of The Mama Making Podcast, host Jessica Lamb sits down with Kendra A. Vargas, LCPC, PMH-C, a perinatal mental health expert and therapist with firsthand experience navigating infertility and IVF. Kendra shares her personal and professional insight into the emotional highs and lows of fertility treatment, the power of community, and how to communicate and advocate through it all. From deciding when to pause or pivot, to the role of partner support and mental health care, this conversation is a compassionate guide for anyone walking the complex path of reproductive health.

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Jessica Lamb (00:57)
Hello everyone and welcome to the Mama Making Podcast. If you're new here, I'm your host Jessica. If you're not new, then welcome back. Today I'm very excited to have Kendra Vargas on the podcast. Kendra is a licensed clinical professional counselor and perinatal mental health professional with her own private practice, Authentically You Psychotherapy. Kendra has had her own challenges with fertility, which led to her focus on reproductive and perinatal mental health, which is exactly what we're gonna chat about today.

Welcome, Kentron, thanks for being here.

Kendra A. Vargas, LCPC, PMH-C (01:27)
Thank you. Thanks for having me, Jessica.

Jessica Lamb (01:29)
Yeah, I'm excited to chat. So tell us a little bit more about you, who you are, where you're from, whatever you're comfortable sharing.

Kendra A. Vargas, LCPC, PMH-C (01:33)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. So I am born and raised here in Chicago, Illinois. I will probably be here forever. And yeah, I started got in the field of, you know, counseling back in 2013, 14. And so I initially started working with the child adolescent population. And

throughout my time and my own personal experiences with infertility, which 10 years ago, like didn't really know much about. Actually, I'd probably say 15, 16 years ago, because that's when we started trying. was a good six years. through my personal experiences, I kind of felt like there just wasn't really a lot out there for people who were just navigating this period. So I just.

you know, I decided that I wanted to transition the niche of my work and really supporting people, just struggling to conceive any type of fertility challenges, pregnancy, postpartum parenting, which I find a lot of the experiences and work that I did in the initial years with the little ones is really helpful, actually, in a lot of the parenting work that I do too. yeah, so I'd say probably like

a good nine, seven, maybe like eight to 10 years ago, somewhere in there is when I kind of decided to make that transition. so yeah, ever since then, I've just really niched down with this population. And so yeah, I started my practice in the fall of 2022, authentically psychotherapy, but I was in the North Shore for a good like six years or so before that. So yeah, it's been a really awesome journey just to be able to

kind of create something of my own and just really continue to niche down, particularly probably more so with infertility. I see everything kind of on that spectrum, but definitely a lot more infertility, kind of what I'm known for.

Jessica Lamb (03:31)
Yeah. And I think it's really great to be able to kind of work through your own experience and then be able to help families on the other side of things. And as they get going, I'm sure it's helpful to be able to have some kind of like personal touch, if you will, to utilizing your experience and what you had. Obviously there's some clinical boundaries as to what you share, I'm sure.

Kendra A. Vargas, LCPC, PMH-C (03:42)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yes, yes,

Jessica Lamb (03:56)
But I think in the back of your mind,

Kendra A. Vargas, LCPC, PMH-C (03:57)
yes.

Jessica Lamb (03:58)
I imagine having that in your back pocket, kind of knowing what it feels like, knowing kind of maybe being able to forecast a little bit what people might be coming into is really helpful for your clients.

Kendra A. Vargas, LCPC, PMH-C (04:06)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, it is. I'm pretty upfront with anyone that I see. I let everyone know that I have personal experience in this journey. And there might be times where self-disclosure is really helpful, especially if someone's feeling super isolated in a particular part, you know, maybe of their treatment process that they don't know anything about, they can't find any information on.

If there is something in my journey that might be helpful for them, obviously has to be to support them, then I will disclose. But yeah, I kind of joke with all my clients and individually and in my group. Like I could sit here and be like, me too, me too. Like I totally get it because I do, but obviously it's not about me. But yeah, they just, I think they all really appreciate just knowing that sure, you're certified and you're trained in this and this is the work that you do.

professionally, but the fact that you've been in it, in the trenches of it all, they do feel really connected in that way. So yeah, it's been helpful. Yeah.

Jessica Lamb (05:03)
Yeah, I'm sure

it's helpful to know that you're like kind of a peer. think therapy and processing things can be overwhelming. So I'm sure that that brings down the intensity a little bit that people might feel just getting started.

Kendra A. Vargas, LCPC, PMH-C (05:06)
Yeah, yeah.

following.

Yes,

yes, yes, totally. It definitely, it helps, yeah. They're like, it's that automatic, I think why I'm really passionate about group work is that automatic like shared experience where people just are like, someone gets it, you know, and it's just that release, that reduction already in anxiety just to know that they're not so alone. Yeah.

Jessica Lamb (05:19)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, right. And I imagine

that there, I haven't been through IVF or a fertility journey, but I imagine and have heard from people that it's so isolating. I imagine that group setting is really key to feeling like, okay, other people get this, it's not just me.

Kendra A. Vargas, LCPC, PMH-C (05:47)
Totally, yeah. And that's when I screen for group members, that's, you I always ask everyone, you know, what's leading you to this group? What are you hoping to get out of this group? And that is the number one thing that people say. They're just like, I just need community. I need to be around people that I want to continue to explain like what things mean or, you know, just people that don't understand the kind of the behind the scenes stressors that no one really sees visually, you know. So like checking the portal or waiting on test results or, you know.

the side effects of meds, right? Like all these things that, you your friends and family just don't really know that you're experiencing to that level. So I think, yeah, that automatic, like, like, you know what this is like. It is just such an automatic connection, which is really amazing to see too in that group setting.

Jessica Lamb (06:34)
Yeah, and I feel like even just knowing the lingo has to be helpful for people.

Kendra A. Vargas, LCPC, PMH-C (06:37)
Yes, my gosh,

yes, it is another, it's whole other language. There's still stuff, even as much as I do the work and train, there's still things that pop up where I'm like, wait, what does that mean? Because there's so many acronyms and, but I always just ask, I'm like, wait, I'm not familiar with that term. Can you explain that? So yeah, yeah.

Jessica Lamb (06:42)
Yeah.

Yeah, and I'm sure they have like

the textbook definition as well as like the layman's terms too.

Kendra A. Vargas, LCPC, PMH-C (06:56)
Yes. Yes,

yes. People are definitely inform- well, a lot more informed than I was. I mean, I did IVF for the first time 10 years ago. So, I mean, I was clueless. I just thought it was something for celebrities because that's all- they were the only people talking about it. So I was like, wait, I'm gonna do IVF? think there's no way. This is for the actors and the actresses. But yeah, yeah, it's a whole-

Jessica Lamb (07:21)
Yeah.

Kendra A. Vargas, LCPC, PMH-C (07:24)
I feel like people are much better informed and really doing a better job. At least that's what I'm seeing. And then I also try to just empower my clients to just be informed, ask questions. It's okay to challenge your doctor or throw out something that maybe you heard about and you're curious if that's something they'll add to the protocol. I think people are just doing a really good job advocating for themselves.

Jessica Lamb (07:46)
Yeah, and I think, I imagine

it has to be that community, whether it's an in-person community or virtual, like the Facebook groups and all of that. I'm sure that community has helped people feel more empowered to be educated about the process as well.

Kendra A. Vargas, LCPC, PMH-C (07:50)
Yeah.

Totally.

Yeah,

yeah, there and you know, there is a lot more out there now. And you know, we talk about the, Facebook groups that are really helpful and can be also really overwhelming. Or just anything that you hear even in the group setting, there's, we always, you know, say, like, let's do your best not to compare to the people that are here. Or I feel like sometimes people will hear a different protocol, and then they question their entire protocol, or they're like, wait, why hasn't my doctor done that? And so we always, you know, I try to

keep everyone calm through those moments, but just remembering that like we're all having our own unique experiences through the journey, although there is a lot of shared experience, but there's also a lot of differences. But sure, could that be a question that you could bring to your doctor? Like, hey, somebody, I know someone going through this and they mentioned this, you know, just ask, you know, and it is nice to see that people will utilize either, you know, what their, the group members will recommend or throw out there or if in my individual work.

I'll share things like, hey, here's some questions, let's come up with some questions. So yeah, people are doing a really good job with that, I find more and more.

Jessica Lamb (09:01)
Yeah.

Well, I think that's a good place to start with your story. Where would be best to kick it off?

Kendra A. Vargas, LCPC, PMH-C (09:04)
Yeah.

Goodness, yeah. So, yeah, so I'd say, boy, 2000, so I got married in 08, 8808. It's an easy one to remember. We got married and I'd say like a year later, we were the ones that were telling all our friends and family, we're gonna start trying, right? Like just lesson learned. But that was, you know, I'd say for a good,

Six years, we tried and tried and took breaks or didn't actively try, but we also weren't not trying and went back to grad school and just were focused on other things in life too. So trying not to make it all consuming, but getting a negative test month after month after month, getting your period starting just over and over again, all of those challenges just were.

it was heavy, right? And so there were times where we were like, we just need to focus on other things and maybe it'll just happen, right? Everyone says, just relax, don't stress, it'll happen. But it didn't. So finally, I'd say like 2015 is when we finally, my OB, she was like, know, I think nothing was coming up in terms of like anything that was.

least noticeable that was causing this or impacting our ability to conceive on both of our ends. And so she was like, I think it's time for you to maybe see a fertility doctor. And I I bawled, like I was crying. I like fell in her arms. I love her. She'd be my BFF if she could today. But she's just really warm and supportive and like, she's just phenomenal. So she was like, she's like, I just think this is going to be good for you. She's like, I have a doctor I can send you to that I work with. And she's like,

She's like, everyone I've sent to her comes back and is pregnant. And I'm like, okay, well then send me over. So we went and saw our doctor who I love, love, love. And I was just, I had my guard up because I didn't know if like our insurance covered it or if this was gonna cost a lot of money. You know, I just, didn't know anything about it. I just knew it was really expensive. And again, that only celebrities were doing it. So I just didn't see it even in my wheelhouse. So.

come to find out like our insurance covered everything, which we were so grateful for. And so we were after testing through them as well, unexplained, nothing was coming up. So she was like, I just, think you're a really good candidate. I think you guys would benefit from doing IVF. So went through the whole process. Honestly, I think.

because I was doing it during a time where there wasn't a lot of information, I was really just trusting the doctor and the team, you know, the techs and the nurses. I really trusted what they were saying, because I just didn't know where to turn or where to get information. None of my friends were going through it. Everyone had had a kid, another kid. Like, no one was really having these challenges. And so I just didn't know where to go. I was searching online, trying to find information. And there were some...

there was some information out there, but then it would get overwhelming. Kind of there were these like, not like a list serve, but kind of like how a Facebook group was, but not on Facebook. Maybe like a Reddit or something to that extent, but wasn't Reddit, I don't think. But I just remember going on there and like getting so overwhelmed because people were talking about parts of the process that I wasn't even at, or I didn't even know what it was. I was like, whoa, whoa, too much. So I really trusted the doctor. And so we were really lucky and it worked for us the first time.

which I know is not always the norm. So we were kind of just like, okay, I guess it worked. And my husband's in IT and he's a logic brain, I'm motion brain. And he's like, well, yeah, it's science and it's gonna work. Like he was just very logical about it all. And I'm like, I don't know. Like, I don't know what it was done this. So it was really helped to have his brain balance mine a little bit. So yeah, everything was really great. We had our daughter, my daughter's now.

going to be nine in three weeks, which is crazy. But fast forward to about four years ago, so we ended up having six embryos and we transferred two. So back then there weren't really, back then in my time, there weren't really, there wasn't a strong recommendation to do genetic testing. Like you could, I knew it, we had to pay for it out of pocket, number one, and I was like, oh gosh, that's a lot. But then,

it was more so like, if you want to know the gender of your baby, like kind of thing. And I was like, well, we don't, we don't care. We just want a baby. So we opted out. And so that's why they put in, they transferred two embryos and I was 35, 35, or I was about to turn 35. She's like, you could do one, you could do two. You're right at that, the advanced maternal age, which is a new term I learned about. I was like, wait, what is that? So we ended up going with two. I was terrified that

they would both stick and that felt like overwhelming, but, so one stuck, the other didn't. And so fast forward, we had four embryos and we had always gone back and forth about whether or not we should go for number two or, do we want to do it again? But it was interesting because all the work that I've done over the years since then, I was just, I know so much more now. And I was really anxious about going in a second time. So I'm like, we got really lucky the first time, like for it to work once and like,

You know, it was just such a smooth process. I was, I was really nervous. So we, we did end up going through it a second time. This was like during the pandemic. And we're working towards a transfer. We completely isolated our friends and family. weren't seeing anyone. Cause I was like, I could not get sick. get COVID. I got to go through with this transfer. And I ended up getting COVID three days before the transfer.

My husband and my daughter had gone out to Menards or something and it had to be, that was the only thing we had done. So I guess we got it from Menards, somehow. So I was devastated because I had gone through all the shots and all the appointments and got COVID three days before, so the transfer was canceled. And I was just heartbroken, I was just so sad. It was already such a difficult time.

So we decided, you know, we had to wait a couple of months. And then we were like, okay, we're gonna try again. So we did it again, but we actually went through with the transfer and it wasn't successful. And then I just, we kind of started to think about, which I think this is a part of the journey that I think a lot of people don't talk about is then when you decide to either change your mind, right?

you decide to end the journey altogether, or maybe it just didn't work the same as it did the first time, right? Or what do we do with our embryos, right? I was never the person really, and no offense to people who are, there's some people that really connect to their embryos and they're their babies, right? They already see this is my future here. I just wasn't that, I was just like, I have these embryos and they're there and if we use them, great. But when it came to the time to make a decision, like, what do we do with these embryos?

I got so attached to them and I was like, we can't just like, no, we said we were gonna move forward, like we should just move forward. And through my own therapy, it was really like getting to the point where I had to just remind myself that it's okay to change your plans and it's okay that you wanna go a different route than you maybe initially thought you would go. But that was a really hard thing for me to wrap my brain around. So we did end up just ending the journey altogether, which I did not.

I didn't know there was going to be so much grief that hit in that, although I know, right, this is an ending to this journey. Like we're, we're, you know, done with our embryos, everything. This is like putting a complete close, you know, to this chapter and, or to this book, I should say. but I will say also as much as I thought I wasn't carrying the weight of it all, once we did end and like really released and like breathe through that, it did feel.

a lot better to be on the other side and just knowing that, you know, we didn't have this pending thing that maybe we'll do, maybe we won't, maybe it'll work, maybe it won't. So that was a really tough process. I think for both my husband and I, we were just really sad. And part of it too, we realized afterwards that a lot of what we were doing, we wanted to have another baby, but a lot of it was more so that we wanted our daughter to have a sibling. And I felt like that was the driving.

force a little bit more than anything. So I was like, well, yes, we'd be so happy, but also like, it's more so for her that we're kind of feeling this drive to want to continue. And it has to be more than that too, you know? And so that was just a lot of the work that we had to do and really, you know, kind of work through all that, all of that stuff came up, which again, I think are parts of this journey that a lot of people just don't know that people experience, you know? So.

So yes, that's my story in a nutshell, in a long story longer, but yeah, it's so I feel like I've experienced that, you know, the successes of it and then just the parts of it that are really, that I didn't know whatever be a challenge for me, right? Like making that decision to end or what do we do with our embryos or, you know, the guilt of like, oh my gosh, my daughter's only gonna, it's just gonna be her. And right, all these feelings that came up were just a lot. Yeah.

Jessica Lamb (17:53)
Yeah,

and I feel like from anybody who I've talked to that has done IVF and had success and moved on and decided not to do more or if they had more and they're like, okay, our family's complete and that was it. I think there's so much on the back end of things that people don't really know or think about. I mean,

Kendra A. Vargas, LCPC, PMH-C (17:57)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Totally.

Jessica Lamb (18:15)
If we think about like when you have a baby and maybe there's a NICU stay or your birth was, you had a traumatic birth and it's like, well you have a baby now, it's fine. Like everyone's healthy, it's fine. But there's so much that has come with that. I feel like it's similar, not same, in that there's the emotions and feelings and challenge of struggling with infertility while you're doing it. But then there's this whole other half of the story where

Kendra A. Vargas, LCPC, PMH-C (18:26)
Right. Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Jessica Lamb (18:42)
It's all the things you're talking about with like not, not knowing like whether you had a baby or not, what you're going to do with your embryos or how you're going to, move forward when your life is so consumed with this fertility journey. And I think that that's something that one people who are going through IVF don't expect. And then obviously their support systems as well. Cause like,

Kendra A. Vargas, LCPC, PMH-C (18:57)
Yes.

Jessica Lamb (19:05)
You have no clue it's coming.

Kendra A. Vargas, LCPC, PMH-C (19:06)
Totally, and maybe you wanna talk about it, but sometimes you don't, right? Or maybe there's, think, knowing who you can talk about it, because some people, you know, people mean well, but the way people respond to some of those situations just may not always be the best, it may not be really helpful, but yeah, it could be like, I mean, even I think about the phone call, we had agreed that we wanted to donate our embryos for research in the beginning. That was what we decided. We signed all the paperwork and.

Jessica Lamb (19:10)
Mm-hmm.

Kendra A. Vargas, LCPC, PMH-C (19:33)
And so when that time came, I'm like, okay, and I called the clinic and tried to, you know, they gave some recommendations, but it was months and months where no one ever got back to us. I was trying to find places that we could donate our embryos. We never had any luck with it. So then we ended up making a decision to discard, because that was the other thing, and that felt horrible. And then when the...

the long-term storage when we decided we sent all the paperwork and they were like, okay, thank you. We received your forms. That was done and like we grieved and we're sad. And then like two months later, I get an email from the long-term storage, like your embryos have been discarded. Thank you for using our cert. And I was just like, God, like I was just, doing so good with this. It's just like little things like that. And then going in the bedroom and seeing like my little, you know, the corner of,

Jessica Lamb (20:16)
Yeah.

Kendra A. Vargas, LCPC, PMH-C (20:22)
your lab, my little lab that I had set up. And then it's like, now I have to get rid of the sharps container. Like, oh, I still have meds. Like in this cabinet, I didn't even know. It's just like the visual reminders. Like all those things that come up that just kind of bring up all those complex emotions again. Like that's, yeah, like you're saying, like that's the kind of behind the scenes stuff that people just don't even know anyone's going through. So yeah, I mean, people met, you know, they were like, you know what?

you know, you're gonna, your daughter's gonna be fine as an only child. It's great. Like, you guys are great parents and you know, thank you. And you know, you'll feel so good now that you made a decision. And I'm like, well, yeah. And I've got a lot of other icky feelings coming up that, just are really heavy. So, and you know, people think you just move on, right? And, but it carries, it carries over for a little while. But it is good to be on the other side and,

Jessica Lamb (21:02)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Kendra A. Vargas, LCPC, PMH-C (21:14)
I didn't realize that once a decision was made and we grieved through, like, we do feel so much lighter and now there's room for just, you know, it's not so all consuming. Even when you think, I'm managing it well and, you know, but it's like always this pending thing there, you know, that that's not closed fully or, you know, not really resolved. And so you don't realize how much weight that carries a lot of the time. Yeah.

Jessica Lamb (21:36)
Yeah, for sure. And

I think the other side of it is, I mean, you could say the same for like pregnancy and delivery where it's like all about the mom, but there's, in some cases, there's another partner going through it as well. How do you, and I know some families don't make it through IVF with a marriage intact.

Kendra A. Vargas, LCPC, PMH-C (21:46)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Yes.

Jessica Lamb (21:59)
Can you

talk a little bit about what that looked like for you and your husband going through this experience and kind of, obviously you have a clinical background, so you're able to have a couple extra tools in your toolkit, but I mean, it's different when you're doing it yourself. So what did it look like for you guys? How did you kind of work through it? And I mean, you're faced with these big decisions pretty frequently. So I'd love to know more about that.

Kendra A. Vargas, LCPC, PMH-C (22:02)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

totally.

For sure. Yeah.

Yeah, I think this is where we realized like communication was key. I tried to find, we tried to find ways where he, there's, he's not involved much. You know, you're using a partner depending on, you know, they, he gives a sperm and he's done. And I was someone who had a lot of anxiety about him giving me shots, although he was open to it, right? So I think it's always nice to find.

ways for if there's a partner involved, like how they can help. And sometimes it is like, you know, getting out the meds or setting up, you know, getting the needles out or, you know, whatever the case is, putting on some music to make it a good vibe every night when you do your, you know, your shots or whatever the case is. we really, I think, and I always talk about, he's going to make fun of me because his logic brain and my emotion brain, I think it was really helpful because he was very like, okay, like,

just very much step by step. This is what we're gonna do. This is what the doctor said. And it was nice to, he was like the calm to my like high emotions, which was really nice. But I did, I tried to always like check in with him too. Like, are you good? And he was always like, I'm good, it's gonna work, great. And he was just so positive about it where I was unsure. again, it was so like, we didn't know anything about it. I think any time someone can...

if there's a partner involved wherever they can, if they can come to appointments, if they can't come to appointments, okay, maybe jot down a couple of questions that you have so that I can bring them to the appointment. But any way that they can be involved can be really helpful. always, I have some clients who are like, oh, I don't know if I should have my husband come to this appointment or I don't know if my partner should be there for me. Well, what do you want? What do you feel like you need? And sometimes people go through it,

alone and then they realize, okay, next time I'm definitely telling my partner needs to be there with me. Like, okay, that's something you've learned and something that's in your control that you can now focus on and what else is in your control? What else can you focus on? So I think a lot of times just the communication, being able to be open as a couple to say like, here's what I need. Here's what's helpful. Okay, hey, maybe that wasn't helpful. And just really keeping that the lines of communication open. And it's okay if

everyone feels different because someone might hold more hope and be more positive. The other person might be more pessimistic and just, you know, that uncertainty is overwhelming. So really just like normalizing that everyone's going to have a different experience in that journey. And it may always stay that way, but it might fluctuate and...

that doesn't mean you shouldn't continue to check in on each other, you know, and just say like, how are you doing this week? We're waiting, we're in the two week wait, what are you, how are, let's figure out how do we stay busy or where's your mind? Cause I'm spiraling, you know, just, I think it's good when people just are open about it and just wherever they are, you know, in their, in their experiences. Yeah.

Jessica Lamb (25:08)
Yeah,

and it sounds like remaining flexible and realizing for each other that it's like a fluid situation. One day you might feel super heightened and other days you're like, okay, I'm feeling a little more confident and that it's so ever-changing as you go through the process. I imagine being flexible, knowing that it is ever-changing and like just being patient and kind with each other as simple as it sounds has to be helpful.

Kendra A. Vargas, LCPC, PMH-C (25:11)
Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah. Yeah.

Right. Yeah.

Yeah, it's, and it, cause you don't realize sometimes how much weight it holds on you or it is on your partner. And it can just be so all consuming. And I just think it's good to have, you know, whether it's your partner or just the community, you really need to have the space. And I think if, if there is a partnership, like you have to lean on each other and

figure out how you guys are gonna make this work, how you guys are gonna get through it as best as you can and supporting each other. So even if it has to be structured, every Sunday night we have a check-in about this, right? If some people are more structured like that or not. yeah, I think just to be able to get out what you're feeling internally is helpful. so I always try to encourage that for sure. But I think people have a hard time when

someone's in a different place, like, he's so hopeful and I'm like not there. Well, that's okay. Like, you know, or even pregnant after infertility, it's like, I haven't switched, my identity is still so focused in infertility, like I haven't transitioned my brain and I'm, cause you're scared too a lot of the time too. And kind of, you know, we always talk about it with infertility, you're always kind of waiting for the other shoe to drop. You're always, you're so used to these ups and downs and.

It can be a hard transition. So sometimes when there's an imbalance or like a difference in the way someone's experiencing that even in that transition, right, can be difficult. So just always encouraging the communication and just like normalizing that it's okay to have a different experience, you know, than your partner. Yeah.

Jessica Lamb (27:03)
Right, yeah.

And I think when you said having your partner be part of it in some way, obviously there's only so much they're gonna be a part of in an appointment, but it reminded me of a friend I had whose husband would make sure her meds were set up and organized in a specific way. He would make sure that there was her ice packs for when she had to transport her medicine.

Kendra A. Vargas, LCPC, PMH-C (27:11)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yes.

Jessica Lamb (27:26)
So I think

doing those like small little, I think you'd pack like a snack in there too, just in case. But I think those little things have to be so helpful and like connecting to be like, we're going through a crazy situation that's really unknown. So like those little things that are like, hey, I'm still here or like, hey, I want to be part of this, I imagine can be strengthening.

Kendra A. Vargas, LCPC, PMH-C (27:30)
Yeah!

Holy

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. It does. It brings you together definitely in a way that you probably never saw. And some relationships tears apart. I mean, you see it go both ways really. can be, depending on what that journey looks like and the challenges that come along the way, because there's so many that people can experience. Sometimes you see a lot of conflict start or difference in direction where, I'm done with this. And I, you know,

Maybe partners like, we can't do this anymore, it's taking over our life. And the other one's like, I'm not there yet, right? And that can be really challenging and bring on an additional stress to an already stressful situation. Yeah.

Jessica Lamb (28:29)
Yeah,

I can imagine it becomes a bit of a pressure cooker situation if you're not communicating with each other.

Kendra A. Vargas, LCPC, PMH-C (28:33)
Yeah, yeah.

Totally. Yeah, yes, yes. And then there's conflict and, you know, people are walking around irritable and stressed and but no one's talking about it because maybe they're afraid to talk about it. We've already talked about it. Nothing's changed. So I'm just gonna keep my mouth shut now. You know? So yeah.

Jessica Lamb (28:48)
Yeah, yeah.

You briefly talked about some of the, when we were chatting about like this whole second half of things, not everyone, I assume, is aware of what your options are when you're deciding to be done with your fertility journey. Can you share a little bit about what the options are and what people are navigating? I feel like it would be helpful for people who are

Kendra A. Vargas, LCPC, PMH-C (28:55)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Jessica Lamb (29:13)
family or support systems of someone going through a fertility journey, knowing what their options are and what they have to decide when they do choose to be done. It's not just like, okay, I'm done. And then there's a whole other side of things that they have to deal with. think it would be helpful for people to know a little bit more about what that looks like.

Kendra A. Vargas, LCPC, PMH-C (29:25)
Great. Great.

So in terms of when choosing to end or not choosing and you have to end, right? Yeah, okay. Yeah, I'd say a lot of different things. think there's, for example, I have clients who have experienced infertility or challenges over the years, whether it's through not even using like a treatment, maybe protocol.

Jessica Lamb (29:34)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Kendra A. Vargas, LCPC, PMH-C (29:53)
or like assisted reproductive technologies, but maybe they've just had gotten pregnant, but continue to have losses, right? Or, and haven't done any of these types of fertility treatments. So then it for, you know, folks like that, it's trying to decide, is this the next step? And sometimes I'll have clients that come to see me who have experienced quite a bit of loss and they're like, you know, our doctor is suggesting we meet with a fertility doctor, but that feels really overwhelming and

So I try to give a lot of education around like, here's how hopefully it can prevent future loss. Of course, it's not a guarantee, but here's how these different protocols and these different treatments can help so that you have a closer look on things. Here's genetic testing, right? All these things. So it's a lot of education around that in terms of making decisions. But also when you're thinking about people who have to stop, or maybe they're doctors, which is just coming up a lot, doctors are finding that

it's not working and they're really upfront with saying like, hey, like this just, we're not gonna move forward anymore and you should explore a donor or you should explore adoption. And that can be really hard to hear. I'm hearing it a lot more recently as I'm working with a lot of clients who are older and kind of getting closer to that window where you can't do fertility treatments anymore.

Um, so it's really just holding space for that and knowing, okay, so let's say you did choose a sperm donor or an egg donor, like what are the things coming up for you and, and talking through that. And a lot of it is the uncertainty about the future, like future conversations. Like, how do I tell my kid this? How do I, well, first of all, we're not there, but yes, these are really important things to think about and we'll continue to figure out, but you know, really helping people know this is an option, but.

making sure that people are really working through the emotions and the things that are coming up for them in terms of making, because that is a, it's a big decision, right? All of it, all of this is, there's so many hard decisions. And then you have people who have to, or choose to stop, right? Like, so like us, when we were like, you know what? We thought we wanted another, we did, but we're also not at a point where we feel like we want to go through this over and over again. So,

It's helpful when you get all this information upfront, like you sign the paperwork, but it's good to have a conversation, I always say, with people, like with the doctor, the team, you what are my next steps? What are the different options that I have? And just taking your time, think, taking the time to really think that through. doesn't have to be a quick decision, but I feel like people often feel so pressured to make a decision, like what's next? And a lot of time it's that.

clock that's ticking, right? Like I'm getting older and my birthday is coming up and now I'm like triggered by all this and it's making it even harder. But I think, hopefully I'm answering your question, but there's, I think that it's.

Again, I think people here and know all usually what's ahead or what steps they can take, but they're not always seeing that because they're not there yet, right? So as we start to like get to that place where, okay, maybe we have to start opening our mind up to some of these ideas. Sometimes it's just taking that time to grieve what they thought this was all gonna look like before they transition into, okay, I think I'm ready to like make a different decision here or like.

figure out what's going to be next. And so even though they may have been informed earlier on, they may not have taken in any of that information because they just weren't there yet. So yeah, I that's helpful if that really answered your question, but yeah. Yeah.

Jessica Lamb (33:17)
Yeah, no it is and I think I think giving yourself grace when you're giving time to like Think about

the options decide what might be best for you It just seems like it's such a permanent decision that allowing yourself time to Think about it make a decision grieve that decision obviously having support like a therapist to work through all of that as you're doing it is is paramount

Kendra A. Vargas, LCPC, PMH-C (33:30)
Yeah.

Yeah.

for sure.

Absolutely.

Yeah, it's not, I mean, like, I think I have someone recently who just found out they have to, they're gonna have to use a surrogate and that they just had a surgery and they identified that this is someone who is not recommended for them to carry. And that is just such a grief that she didn't see coming, right? And it's funny, you always often hear people say like, you know, once you're in this,

journey a little bit, you start to know kind of what's ahead, you know what to expect, you kind of become a pro in some of these areas. And, but then you get hit with something where you're like, wait, I never saw that as something that could come up. And that can be really challenging for someone, especially who likes to know what's ahead and, you know, try to focus on the things that are in their control and have an idea of all the potential outcomes, which I feel like is a really constant.

part of the process, can be really, you know, you're, can really start to spiral in some of that. But when you really, when something comes out of left field and you're like, Whoa, this, I, I wait, I need a minute. And like, yeah, absolutely you do. And that's okay. And let's take our time through this. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the part I think people are afraid to pause a lot of the time because they want to just keep going. Like once you hop on that, that train,

Jessica Lamb (34:44)
Yeah.

Kendra A. Vargas, LCPC, PMH-C (34:56)
You just go. But it's like, we always talk, it's okay to slow down the train, it's okay to pause and get off and come back. like, you have to, you have to do that, right? Because there's so much coming at you. Yeah.

Jessica Lamb (35:07)
Yeah. What's some other advice that you would have for people going through or let's start with people who are just about to start treatment. What's some good advice you have for, the newbies to the, to the IVF crew.

Kendra A. Vargas, LCPC, PMH-C (35:15)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah,

yeah, I'd say do your research, like, you know, go on these websites, look and see, you know, are there Instagram pages or whatever, like if there's clinics you're thinking about, or, you know, I always, I'll give like recommendations with clinics that I, you know, really like to support. But I always tell people like, do your research, go online, you know, go look at the website, are there people that look like you or does the language speak to you?

Does it feel like, what's the feeling? Like, so like, really taking it step by step and like checking in with yourself. Like, what's this feeling like? Does this feel like someone that I could possibly, you know, go to? Does this feel like a clinic that would support me and my goals? Do they have experience here? And then I always help clients like come up with a list of questions to ask, you know, do you have experience working with this or what's, you know, the percentage of people like you can add, you know, some people are very like they want.

statistics and things like that. but also I usually will tell people like I use always like the train reference that it is, there's going to be some highs, there's going to be some lows and it could be, it could be super smooth, right? It could be, but the waiting, sometimes you realize, my gosh, the weight is really, you know, it's stressing me out or.

hearing the numbers, I tell people you're going to get hit with a lot of numbers and there's going to be, you can really get attached to those numbers. We have retrieved this many eggs and then that number might change by the time you get through genetic testing. That number is not going to look the same. So don't get attached to the numbers. Do your best to not get attached to the numbers. I always tell people. But yeah, I think just being flexible, remaining patient and knowing that it's okay to take a pause. The train takes off fast and it goes and, but I,

try to really encourage people to have community, communicate what their needs are, what their limits are, advocate for themselves. And it's okay to pause along the way to either process information that you received or think about what your next steps are, or maybe your mental health is, you're realizing is really being impacted in a way that your day to day is just not feeling right.

Maybe it's you take a pause, maybe you need meds, right? Maybe because it can really bring on and exasperate, you know, maybe you're already going through stress, something stressful, right? And I think that's the part that people don't realize. say this, you have life, you have all these other stressors going on in your life, and then you add this and you wonder why it hits you so hard. And well, yeah, because it's an addition to life, right? It's in the all the day to day things that you go through. So I just tell people to really eat.

you know, take care of themselves and try to not have this be this all consuming thing, but it can definitely feel that way.

Jessica Lamb (37:55)
And what advice do you have for those who are deciding to end their journey, whether they're nearing that point or have to make a decision about where they're going to take it next?

Kendra A. Vargas, LCPC, PMH-C (38:03)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. So it's different when you're looking at someone who is not going to, so maybe they don't have a kid, right? It's not the, this is their first time. This is the direction they're going and they're finding out that this isn't going to be the path and that maybe this will not end with a child, right? And I think that can be really, really difficult to navigate. Oftentimes if it's, whether it's a couple or,

or an individual who's working towards trying to get pregnant, I think a lot of the times it's trying to help them really focus on going back to what brought, whether it's a couple, like what brought them together or what are things, other things they can focus on. And we can explore, sure, is surrogacy or is adoption or any of these things an option, but if this is the end and

this will not end with a child, then it is really trying to get back to the other joys in their life, right? How to take the time though to grieve this because that is a big grief. And I think people think that they can just get on the other side of it often, like, it's fine. Like, we'll just, we'll just only hang out with our friends that don't have kids or we'll just, I don't know. And they're like, just trying to figure it out. And, you know, I think a lot of times it's...

it's just take the time. You just have to take your time. have to grieve and you have to allow it. And you'll naturally start to come on the other side. And there will be a time where it won't be as heavy. But right now it's going to be heavy for a while. So it is really trying to just get people to really take care of themselves. If there's community, whether support groups or things like that with people in that situation, things like that can be really helpful too. But then if we're looking at someone who maybe this is

their second time around, right? And it's not happening as it did the first time. I think a lot of the advice I even gave to myself was like, stay flexible. And it's okay to give yourself the permission to say, this journey is changing. This story is changing. And that's okay. I can go into this. I went into this one way expecting it to go this way. And we're ending in a different way now.

that's okay. And I think that's for both scenarios. It's just knowing that, give me your self permission to be flexible and have that grace on yourself to say, okay, it's different. And that doesn't mean it's wrong. It doesn't mean it's bad. It's just a different choice. And sometimes we just, our lens is so narrow, we're only focused on this one way where when another way comes in, that can be really hard. So it's okay to slowly allow yourself to let in some other options. Yeah.

Jessica Lamb (40:32)
And what resources do you have that you think could be helpful for anybody anywhere on the journey?

Kendra A. Vargas, LCPC, PMH-C (40:38)
Yeah, so self promo, guess I have a journal that I for anyone that is navigating infertility, they can it can be the early stages where maybe they're over 35 and they've been trying six months or they're under 35. They've been trying a year. And so it's a journal, it's prompted and it has like different parts like the beginning or the decision making process, the treatment process.

different prompts and then there's like a lot of space too in there to just kind of like journal anything that's coming up for you like a brain dump space. But it's kind of nice to use like along the journey like as you're making decisions or contemplating like what's next. There's a lot of prompts that are geared towards that. So that's a journal that I saw it's on Amazon and on Etsy. It's called Fertility and Beyond. And so yeah, that's a good one. Mindful IVF is a really

good app that I love to recommend when people are in the treatment process. It feels like they're speaking directly to you. The voice is super soothing, but they're like little recordings or they're guided meditations, but they're very specific to where you are in your treatment process. So if you're

in the two week wait or you're on day three of STEMs, there's a meditation for it. So it feels like they're talking to you because it's at the same time of your cycle of what you're going through. So that's a really good one. People really like that. What else? There's a podcast, Big Fat Negative, that a lot of people really like. I'm trying to think what other...

there's a book, the Injustice of Infertility book is a good one. There's a lot of podcasts. I can't think of them off right on the top, but there's also Instagram accounts that I like, like Infertility School, Fertility Out Loud, Explaining IVF. She's an embryologist in Philly and she puts out a lot of educational videos and

I think I always try to guide people to resources that are going to be helpful and not like super overwhelming. Like Fertility Nutritionist, I think fertility.nutritionist or some accounts on Instagram. Yeah, I'm just thinking of like some different accounts. I have like all over from book to podcasts to apps. But yeah, those are just some helpful. Resolve has a lot of good information too. And then Postpartum Support International, they do a lot of groups online that are free and there's some related to this too. So.

Jessica Lamb (42:46)
No, those are all helpful. Okay.

Kendra A. Vargas, LCPC, PMH-C (43:00)
So yeah, whether you're a single parent by choice or going through this, or if you're a couple or LGBTQIA plus or pregnancy loss, they have very specific groups on PSI too. So, and then I run groups too. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jessica Lamb (43:10)
Yeah. And we'll, yeah, we'll link all of it in the show notes.

but how can people find you a social media website, anything else you want to share?

Kendra A. Vargas, LCPC, PMH-C (43:16)
Yeah.

Yeah. So my website is aypsych.com and my socials are so Instagram is probably the one I'm the most active on. It's A-U Psychotherapy. So A-Y-O-U Psychotherapy. And then, yeah, I think that's it. Probably my website and there. And on the website you'll find I run a fertility support group.

for people that are dealing with fertility challenges that's been running almost six years. And then I have a pregnancy after infertility group two, because I found that people really just weren't connecting with other pregnant folks after their journey in navigating infertility. So that group is there too. So, yeah. Yay.

Jessica Lamb (43:56)
Awesome. Well, we'll link all of that in the show notes. Super helpful for anybody

in the journey. I so appreciate you being on. Thank you so much.

Kendra A. Vargas, LCPC, PMH-C (44:03)
Yes,

thank you so much, Jessica. It was really nice to be here.