Rachel Menge | Why Making Mom Friends Feels So Hard - and How to Actually Do It

Making mom friends sounds simple, right? But so many of us are quietly wondering: Why is this so awkward and hard? In this episode, Jessica sits down with perinatal therapist and founder of Mind Made Well Counseling, Rachel Menge, LCSW, to unpack the real reasons new moms struggle with friendship—and what to do about it.

Rachel shares her own journey of rebuilding a social circle after baby #2, plus the low-pressure strategies she's seen work for clients and herself. Whether you're shy, newly relocated, or just tired of being the one who always initiates, this conversation offers real talk and real tools to help you make meaningful mom connections.

Spoiler: You don’t need 10 best friends—just a few people who get it.

Main Topics Covered

• Why making friends after becoming a mom feels harder than it “should”
• The myth of the instant village and what to expect instead
• Social scripts, routines, and “soft invites” that actually build connection
• Tips for navigating mom cliques, story time circles, and nature classes
• Shifting your mindset from “I’m not likable” to “I’m worth knowing”
• The role of therapy in untangling what’s getting in your way
• Building your own community hub (and why it doesn’t need to be fancy)

Resources Mentioned

• Mind Made Well Counseling
• RESOLVE: The National Infertility Association – resolve.org

Connect with Rachel Menge

• Website: mindmadewell.com
• Instagram: @mindmadewell
  
  

This episode is sponsored by Collabs Creative - a digital marketing company supporting makers, creatives, and small business owners with all things digital and design.

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Transcript

Jessica Lamb (00:57)
Hello everyone and welcome to the Mama Making Podcast. If you're new here, I'm your host Jessica. If you're not new, then welcome back. Today I'm very excited to have Rachel Mungie on the podcast. Rachel is an LCSW who specializes in maternal and perinatal mental health and the owner of Mind Made Well Counseling. Today we are talking all things mom friends, everything all over the map. Welcome and thanks for joining me.

Rachel (01:19)
Hi Jessica, thank you for having me.

Jessica Lamb (01:20)
So tell us a little bit more about you, who you are, where you're from, whatever you're comfortable sharing.

Rachel (01:25)
Sure. So my name is Rachel. I am a therapist in Barrington, Illinois, and I work with clients in person in my office here in Barrington and virtually throughout the state of Illinois. I'm a mom of two. I have an almost six-year-old and a one-year-old. I got into perinatal social work, perinatal therapy after I had my daughter back in 2019. And the majority of my practice focuses on motherhood and working with

women sort of from preconception all the way up through the early years of mothering.

Jessica Lamb (01:56)
It's amazing. think, and anybody I talk to who focuses on perinatal, it's like, after I had my own kid, I had a different perspective on things. It's interesting that you had that same experience.

Rachel (02:07)
Yeah, I think there seems to be a heavy correlation with people who've gone through their own postpartum experiences and then shifting that focus into perineal work for sure.

Jessica Lamb (02:17)
Yeah, definitely. So we're chatting a little bit today about making mom friends. There's like this elusive idea that like making mom friends is really hard. No one knows where to start or how to get out of their comfort zone. I just want to start by asking why is it so hard to make mom friends?

Rachel (02:35)
I think that's a great question. And I think that it maybe it's a different answer for each person. But I think there's some themes. I think first of all, a lot of women have this idea that you should have a lot of mom friends and that if you don't have a lot of mom friends, there might be something wrong with you. And along with that, kind of this idea that mom friends like happen organically and kind of fall into your lap. think social media and a lot of media in general kind of shows that.

kind of idea of like a bunch of moms getting together for coffee and walking with their strollers, etc, etc. And I think a lot of people once they have their babies and they don't find that they feel weird about it. So I think, though, in my experience as a mom, in my experience with my own friends, and then in my experience in my work with clients, what I found is like for a lot of people after they have their first child, they actually have a

dip in their social inter maybe lose friends that t they don't find that new away. And so in general, end up feeling lonelier a that leads to this natura of like, well, why like w or why don't I have frie you know, it's it's hard t is a lot going on that yo

I think it can be hard to make space for that. And I think a lot of times, just to be honest, think a lot of times people are waiting for the other person to make the move. And so nobody makes the move and then nobody makes friends.

Jessica Lamb (04:03)
Yeah, I think that there's, like you said, it's different for everybody, but I feel like there's so many different factors that play into it. I know for me, when I first had my son, I had to like relearn how to talk to people. I had been like, I mean, your brain changes so much in pregnancy and postpartum. And then like I was on my maternity leave, only home with the baby all day and like had to relearn. I had to force myself to like be in social interactions and relearn how to.

Rachel (04:15)
Absolutely. Now I think it's perfect too.

Yes.

Jessica Lamb (04:31)
chit chat with people. And so I think that's part of it too, where you're like, my gosh, I can't even hold the conversation with anybody, let alone like making new friends.

Rachel (04:38)
Absolutely.

Yeah, I think that's part of it. mean, obviously, there's like cognitive changes in a woman's brain in the perinatal period that definitely impact our ability. You can tell I had a baby a year ago, and I swear I'm like not as sharp as I used to be. So if I say something that doesn't make sense, it's not my fault. There's that piece, but then I also think there's the piece of, especially like maybe with a first baby, it's just absolutely a life changing experience.

where you're learning to not only take care of yourself, but take care of another person at the same time. And so when you're also adding into like, how do I make a friend? It's, you're not going to follow the same rules that you used to because you can't just pay attention to yourself. You have to pay attention to your baby too. And they're not on your schedule. So yes, you could make plans to go out for coffee with someone and then you might have to change it for whatever reason, because of your child, you might go out for coffee and not be able to hear a darn word because your child is needing you.

And so I think there's that piece of it too, where it's just like, you know, it's harder to make a friend and be able to attend to a conversation or something like that when you also have a baby. So I think there's that piece of it too that comes into play.

Jessica Lamb (05:46)
Yeah. And I think something important to mention in talking about like new moms, I think you don't expect your life to change that much and don't really know what it's going to look like. So again, for me, I was like, I'm just going to have all the same friends. like, it's just another portion of my life that has happened. But then you very quickly realize that's not the case. And I think a lot of people have a hard time with that, especially like where you fall in your

friend group. Like if you're the first one to have a kid, I imagine that is increasingly hard to navigate because you're like not getting the invite anymore. Like you don't want to talk about the same things that they want to talk about. And then you could be on the opposite spectrum where all of your friends, you're the last to have kids. And so everyone kind of gets it. But even still, I think that there's so many experiences where people are like, my friends just fell away.

Rachel (06:14)
Yes.

Absolutely.

Jessica Lamb (06:38)
That's so hard to navigate. know I myself lost a really good friend at that time frame just because she didn't know how to support me and didn't make the effort to do it. And I know that's not uncommon for people. So what you're saying about like the having this narrative in your head about what it's going to look like, how do we kind of navigate that?

Rachel (06:45)
or like, yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I think the first piece is maybe accepting that like it your relationships are going to change after you have children. And that doesn't mean anything bad about you. Like that is just like a normative change that happens during matricide, matricide. Like, right? Like that is normal. It happens to most people, the people that it doesn't happen to, I think are lucky. and wherever you fall in your friend group, you know, you change because you have a baby now and the way you think about things might change and the way you're going to show up is going to change. And so.

friendships are systems, there's going to be natural changes. So I think the first step is to just sort of accept that there are changes. And then, you know, once you accept that, then you sort of turn to what your life looks like now. And then you think about what kind of relationships would help in this space of life, you know, and I think that mind shift can help. It allows you to maybe grieve some of those relationships without feeling like you are to blame or there's something wrong with you because those relationships have ended or changed.

Jessica Lamb (07:51)
Yeah. And I think it's hard to not like read into everything and you are so heightened emotionally during that time period too. It's hard not to, not to like point the finger back at yourself, but I think that's a great suggestion to like realize that things are going to change and they have changed and then kind of refocus or like recalibrate a bit after that.

Rachel (08:12)
Absolutely. Yeah, it's a transitional period. I mean, I don't know if you've, I'm sure you've heard like the term matressence. And when I learned about that, I was like, that makes a lot of sense, right? It's like adolescence is like this kind of period of like awkwardness and uncomfortability and things are shifting and you're sort of finding your footing again. And so that's happening to you as a person after you have a child and it's happening in relationships too.

Jessica Lamb (08:31)
Yeah, for sure. Can you talk about, in terms of like a friendship system for people who aren't super familiar with like the whole concept of systems, like with family systems and all of that, how it kind of plays into with friendships?

Rachel (08:45)
Yeah, I think when I say that, what I mean is that, you know, we have patterns of interacting with people. And when one of us changes in a significant way, that impacts the way the relationship functions. Right. So if maybe you and one of your girlfriends, like, you know, would have kind of your monthly girls night out where you go and get dinner. And now suddenly one of the members of the group has a baby and they can't get together until after bedtime. So they don't want to go out till eight and they also want to be in by 10.

You know, I mean, that's obviously gonna cause some shifting in that relationship and people are gonna have feelings about that. And then even on smaller levels, you know, it might change in terms of maybe your friend used to call you up in the middle of the day when something went wrong or they're having a hard time and you immediately pick up and help them debrief. But now you have a baby and so you can't immediately pick up. And so they might have their own thoughts and feelings about what that means that you're not picking up. And it kind of becomes this, you know, spiral.

of reactions where it just might change the relationship because you are not in control of how that other person perceives the change. And for some relationships, I think you can go through that. You can transition to a new phase of being in a relationship where everybody understands that the rules are a little different and isn't taking that personally. And some relationships, people will take it personally and the relationship will change and maybe it will end. So I think that's what I mean by that. If that makes sense.

Jessica Lamb (10:01)
Yeah, no, that's

super, that's super helpful. Cause I think, we just think that our friends are going to stay our friends and what, regardless of whether you have kids or not, your life changes, you change so much over time. They think naturally your friends are going to do that. And then in this time period, so much changes at one time that it just seems natural that that's going to happen. Not that it makes it easier, but it, definitely.

Rachel (10:18)
And if you're self, yes.

It doesn't make it easier, but I think it can take away some of that feeling of like, what's wrong with me that this happened? Or like, I should be able to maintain all these relationships. My friendships should stay the same. If you maybe accept that this is a transition and during the transition, some things may change, some things will change and some things just might end. I think that can help too.

Jessica Lamb (10:25)
Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think

as you become a mom and start going into the years of motherhood that you realize that some things just have to fall away because you can only juggle so many things. And I think unfortunately, friendships fall into that as well. So yeah, I think that's great advice. So what are some of the common things that you're saying in your practice when moms are like,

Rachel (10:52)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Jessica Lamb (11:07)
I can't make mom friends and I think this is why.

Rachel (11:09)
Yeah, so I would break it down into two different categories. So first category is like, often think of like practical skills, right? Like they maybe have never had to make friends and they don't know how to make a friend, which is, it sounds so weird, but like that's a skill and you can get really good at it if you practice. and then the other piece of it, I think is they maybe know what to do, but they don't for some reason. And oftentimes that has to do with what they're thinking. so they're telling themselves something about what it will mean if they do some of these things and it's holding them back. So I think.

When I'm working with moms, the first thing I try to do is normalize that, like, is normal. Pretty much everyone I've ever talked to struggles a little bit with their friendships once they have a baby, some more than others. But to struggle with that, think, is normal. So first we normalize that. And then we start to look at, OK, well, what is your strategy if you want to make friends? Like, what are you doing? And then from there, we look at, if you're not doing those strategies, why aren't you?

So if it would be helpful, can talk a little bit about some of the strategies that I've taught people and that have worked for me and my friends and clients as well, if that would help.

Jessica Lamb (12:09)
That'd be great.

Rachel (12:10)
Okay. So I think, you one of the big things is to think about, you know, how do you make a friend, which sounds so basic. And I'm a social worker. And so I've worked, as many social workers have, in like all sorts of different settings, right? I've had like 10 different jobs. And one of my first jobs, I worked for a community mental health center. And one of the things that we did is we helped people

with various different types of disabilities, get out in the community and get engaged. And in one of our orientation trainings, the instructor came in and he was talking about, you know, some of these people that you work with don't have a lot of relationships. We want to help them build a relationship. How do you help somebody build a relationship? And it has always stuck with me when he said this. And I honestly, I was like, I don't even know if I like thought about that as a strategy. But yes, it's obvious. But I don't know that a lot of people think about it.

And his strategy was really simple. said, keep a, keep a routine, go to the same place at the same time in a space where you think that there might be people that you would like to connect with and keep going and be friendly, smile, say hello. And he said, if you keep doing that over and over and over again, you will gradually start to make relationships without really even trying. And so I think that's the biggest thing that I often try to teach moms is to go to try to identify mom friendly spaces and go there on a regular basis, sort of at a regular time.

and try your best to be friendly. That doesn't mean that you have to immediately exchange numbers. It means that you might smile and say hello. And the next week you might say, hey, how was your weekend? And that's an easy little tip that is I feel like so low risk, but it works. So what does that look like? So that means like go on your local library website, look up story time in the library, go every Monday at 10, and just make that your routine.

And what you'll start to see is you'll start to see the same faces. Maybe you'll see somebody that you seem a little interested in. You'll start to talk. And then gradually over time, you can get into a place where you might feel comfortable being like, hey, what are you doing after story time? I brought some extra snacks. Do you want to go sit over here and have a coffee while our kids play? And that's the natural progression then. The other piece of it, I think, that is really helpful is to get comfortable being the person to make the first move.

A lot of women, and I will include myself in this before I practice this in my own life, want the other person to be the first person to make the move because it feels safer. We don't fear rejection if somebody else is asking us out to coffee or for our number. If we're asking them out for coffee or for their number, they might say no, or they might not respond, and that feels icky. But most of us feel that way. And so if we are all thinking that and then we are not all reaching out and we are missing out on a lot of opportunities,

to get to know other people that we might have good connections with. So I strongly encourage that gradual exposure to being the first person to make a move. It can be really, really small. When we're talking about story time at the library or something like that, it can simply be like, I have some snacks. Do you want to come sit with the, what's your child like snacks and to sit with me? Can I grab you a coffee? I'm going to go get one. do you want to come over for a play date? Very small things like that.

strategy that I've encouraged lots of moms to use is to create like low pressure social environments where you are the instigator. So one strategy I've used for myself that has worked really well is that I have hosted a lot of play dates at my house and I do them sort of as group invites. So like when my daughter was in preschool, I would just kind of invite like all the girls in her class, for example, over to my house and I'd have a small activity. And then anyone who wanted to would show up. People definitely did show up because everybody wants something to do.

And then the moms that I felt like I had a connection with that was kind of in impetus to getting to know them better. So I would say those are like my top three. Go to mom friendly spaces on a regular routine, make the first move, and then be willing to also be like the hub for some of these things and the coordinator.

Jessica Lamb (15:49)
I love all of those. all like so easy and practical But it makes so much sense because we haven't been in a environment where we have had to make new friends. we're in school or in college and you're just like naturally meeting people and you don't have to work so hard to make those friends. And then you're in a work environment. Like all these people are here.

Rachel (16:08)
the

Jessica Lamb (16:11)
in your environment, whereas now you kind of have to like create your environment.

Rachel (16:13)
Yes.

I think that's exactly what is, right? Like what you're describing, like when you're talking about school or living in a dorm or work, right? Those are like, if we look at kind of these rules, that's what's happening there. Like you see those people every day at the same time and you're doing something together and you know, like gradually over time, they're becoming your friends. It's not like you went up to them on the street and asked for their number, right? It's just the environment, the gradual getting to know people. It's more natural. Once you become a mom,

It isn't as natural. You have to be more intentional. And I think that's the biggest piece is you really do have to be intentional about making friends once you're a mom.

Jessica Lamb (16:51)
Yeah. And I imagine it's 10 times harder if you're not an extroverted type of person. I'm definitely extroverted. I'll talk to anybody about anything. Obviously I have a podcast. And so I think it makes it a little bit easier for me to go up and be like, Hey, what's your kid's name? Do you want to go grab coffee? We're doing X, Y, Z. You should come. But for the mom who is not that way. And of course you've been in this like maternity bubble as well. I imagine it's 10 times harder to be able to put yourself out there.

Rachel (16:56)
Yes.

It is. I think, I think that's the space where, honestly, if you're one of those people and you know, you struggle with that therapy can really help because a lot of times I think there are some, you know, kind of underlying like core beliefs that you might have about yourself that are getting in the way. and in addition, it's an exposure piece, right? It's getting comfortable with like putting yourself out there and talking to people. therapy can really help with that. mean, I be honest, I, I was a very shy child. I was very shy up until.

about midway through college. And I really didn't come out of my little shell until I became a social worker. And that was through the gradual exposure of like having to talk to people all the time. But even still, once I became a mom, it was really hard for me to make mom friends. I moved to a new place with my husband. I didn't know anyone that COVID happened. a lot of this, the things I'm talking about are things I've done.

myself. Like I will often joke that I like went on a campaign to make friends, but I actually did. I wanted friends. I was lonely. And so I did all these things. And I can say that as like a very like kind of actually naturally introverted, very shy person. So it gets easier. But I would definitely say like, if you feel like I'm lonely, and there's this thing getting in the way of it, and it's in my head, find a good therapist who can help you.

Because I do think that everybody, even introverted people, has the capacity to use these skills to make friends. You don't need to have 50 friends, but life is better when you have like two to three friends that you can talk to.

Jessica Lamb (18:38)
Yeah,

absolutely. I think that, well, the idea of go every Monday to the library class seems easy. When you get there, it might seem hard. But I feel like if you, what you're saying about like changing your mindset about like what you want out of the situation, I realized for me, my son is two. So in the second year of our life together.

Rachel (18:49)
Okay.

Jessica Lamb (19:00)
I had to be really intentional about when I would go to these spaces to be open and be willing to chat. Just because I feel like once you change your mindset to be like, okay, now I'm open to make more mom friends or I'm open to have more female relationships. I found it easier to be able to have a little bit more confidence to go up to someone I might not know or to attend the class I've never been to. So I think once you're changing your mindset,

Rachel (19:07)
Yes.

Yes.

Jessica Lamb (19:29)
it's a little bit easier to make the leap to do that. But I think utilizing therapy to be able to like figure out why you're being held back, what can I change in my mental space to allow for more space for me to engage, I think is so helpful.

Rachel (19:45)
Yeah,

there's a lot of mind shifts that have to happen, I think, in becoming a mom in the first place. And this is just one of them that relationships take a little more work. And especially if you're a person that is shy or more introverted, it just takes a little more work. But I think lowering the bar too. If you're going to a group at the library or whatever you're going, you don't have to meet your

best friend there, right? I mean, could just, your goal for the day could simply be, I'm going to try to like, just talk to another mom, right? And just talk to them. You don't have to become their best friend, but even that I think can help us when we're feeling lonely to get even a little bit of connection. And maybe it develops into something, but it doesn't need to. so I think taking that down to can be helpful. know, realistically, once you become a parent, like

That's sort of how friendships are too. A lot of times, you you have the friends that are like the tea ball friends and the dance friends and you know, they maybe aren't the mom's night out friends, but there are still people that you see that you have connection with in these small environments and that's okay. So I think that shift too can help.

Jessica Lamb (20:50)
Yeah.

And I think what you're saying about, not having, they don't need to be your best friend is huge. Cause I think we think like, I need the person who I'm going to, to text and be like, Hey, is this normal or be a close relationship? But I think that's kind of like, when we talk about building your village, I feel like that's kind of how it starts where you're like, Hey, this is just a mom I chat with at story time. but then I see her out in the community and I, I.

Rachel (21:09)
it goes.

Jessica Lamb (21:16)
Suddenly two years from now our kids are in baseball together. So I think you, that's how you slowly start to build your village. Cause I think a lot of people are like, okay, I'd love to have a village, but how do I even do this? And I think this is a great example of like, they don't need to be your best friend. can be your person that you grab coffee with on Fridays or whatever it might be. I think that also is confidence and community building at the same time. Like you're going into spaces where you now feel more comfortable.

Rachel (21:28)
Yes.

Jessica Lamb (21:43)
think other moms see that like, come hang out with us. That can be helpful as well.

Rachel (21:49)
Yeah, it becomes like a networking thing, right? You meet one mom, she might know another mom. And then to your point too, I think that is how you eventually find like the best friends, right? It ends up being people like maybe your kids really vibe or you have a lot of, you know, similar things that you're doing and you have a good connection and maybe three years down the road, like you are really good friends, but it doesn't have to be. It could also just be, you know, mom and story time. And that can feel fulfilling too, to have those moms as well.

Jessica Lamb (22:15)
Yeah, and then you just don't feel so isolated, like I'm going to this class and not talking to anybody. I think it can be helpful to feel, like we've been saying, the confidence of deciding to make that interaction happen can be helpful.

Rachel (22:28)
Yes.

Yes, to be intentional about it, absolutely.

Jessica Lamb (22:32)
Yes. So

one of the big questions I or things I hear from other moms is how do we like, so we're going to this class, this nature class every Friday and these are, this is an established group of moms. They've all known each other since like the infant class. I'm new to the area or I'm a new mom to this class. How do I infiltrate this group or be a part of this? Like what I would see as like the cool clothes club.

I think that kind of trickles down to motherhood as well, whether we like it to or not. But how do we kind of navigate those situations?

Rachel (22:57)
How do I get in there?

It does.

I mean, it takes some confidence to do it, right? But again, I think you kind of have to just put yourself in there a little bit, and you can start small. But I always like to think about maybe you start with an observation or a compliment, and a real one, not a fake one. But maybe you like their stroller, and you have a question about it, right? And so you might be like, is that the upper baby? What do you think of it? I was going to get that. And so I think kind of getting an in can be helpful.

I would just keep doing that. Every week that you go, you kind of gravitate over. And it might feel a little awkward because if there's an in-group and you're in the out-group, it is going to feel a little weird when you're breaking in. The other piece of it, would be I would say sometimes we have this idea that we want to be in the in-group. I don't know that you always want to be in the in-group. So moms can have cliques, too. And sometimes if you see a really big clique, I don't know that you necessarily want to get into it.

So I might also recommend like you can make your own little click on the side. I'm sure there's other moms there who also aren't talking to anyone. Maybe just focus on them. So I think it kind of depends on what your goal is. But in general, I think a lot of it is being willing to just kind of put yourself out there and then understanding too when we're like looking at an in-group and we're in the out-group.

I think a lot of times we can tell ourselves stories about like what's going on with those women and how close they are. And we might be like, they're the best of friends. They hang out all the time. They may not, they might've only been in this two more times than you and they just have gotten comfortable talking. They may love to meet you. And so again, I think if you can shift it to, I'm a cool person and like they would like, they would like to meet me and then you can try that. That can help too, right? To kind of rewrite that story from like, they're just this cohort and they don't want anyone new to like,

No, those look like moms that maybe want to meet other people because they're all talking. And you can shift again that mindset and then try some intentional action and see what happens.

Jessica Lamb (24:51)
Yeah, definitely. I think, like you said, we tell ourselves these stories of like, they don't want, they're too cool. Like they don't want, they don't want me involved. But I think, like you said, putting yourself out there and connecting, like finding the connection points is helpful. I think also something that I've learned, granted I'm only two years in, but choosing activities that I would enjoy doing as well are kind of something that I learned in my first year. I don't love like,

the top rock classes or the story time. My son and I like the nature class or whatever like meet up where the kids are just running around the park. Like things that I would enjoy doing, like he's also gonna find something fun, but then I can also make connections with people who have a common interest or a common goal. I'm using nature classes as an example, because we start one tomorrow, but I know that.

Rachel (25:31)
Mm-hmm.

Jessica Lamb (25:41)
those moms are kind of going to be in line with like, get the kids outside, let them run around. Or even like we go to a gymnastics meetup. I'm not a gymnast, but my son loves to run around. I know that I'm going to meet other moms who are like, my kid's crazy. This is the best thing that could happen for them. Yes.

Rachel (25:57)
Yeah, whose kids like to run around, right? Yeah,

absolutely. I think that's a great tip too, right? Like pick places that feel interesting to you, not because you feel like you should like them. Like if you don't like story time at the library, you don't have to do story time at the library. There's lots of other options.

Jessica Lamb (26:09)
Right, yeah,

and I think not, do things that your kids like to do as well, but I think it could create an opportunity to be like, I can spend time with you outside of this activity because I know that we have things in common.

Rachel (26:22)
Absolutely. Yeah, you're more likely to find people with similar interests in things that you were interested in. That makes lot of sense.

Jessica Lamb (26:28)
Yeah. Any other strategies that you think would be helpful for getting moms out and meeting new people?

Rachel (26:34)
Yeah, you know, I mean, think one of the things that kind of goes along with like being the initiator. But if you have, know, like a person that you're friendly with in a specific space, like, you know, storytime at the library or like whatever school, if you can, again, like get out of your comfort zone and be willing to like take, try to take the relationship to the next step, which sounds so much like dating. But like, let's say you're like, I think that mom seems really cool. Like I would love

Like when I think about, you know, going to dinner without our kids, like I want to go with that mom, be the one to ask that. Right. Like I think being comfortable initiating like the next step, that is what's going to lead to success and having those next step relationships. It won't work out. It's just like dating. Like it was not going to be a match with every person. Um, and some people might not want that with you. They might not feel the same way and that's okay. But if you get comfortable asking, the rejection will sting less.

And eventually you are going to find people who become the people that do whatever it is that you like to do outside of your mom role, which I think for moms is really important too, right? It's very important in my opinion to have space to be yourself outside of being a mom. And it can be helpful to have women who are also moms and also trying to find ways to be themselves outside of being a mom. And so sometimes it's that taking the relationship to a next level and like,

maybe doing something just the two of you or as a group as well.

Jessica Lamb (27:59)
Yeah, and I think obviously having kids that are the same age or age group is a great in-road to becoming friends. But I think like all moms get it. All moms get that it's hard to make friends or that you're busy or not going to respond very quickly to text message or an email or whatever. So I think like I'm thinking of my closest friends. One of them has a kid that's a little close to my kid, but the rest of them have like teenagers. So they're like

Rachel (28:07)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Jessica Lamb (28:27)
super compassionate with me and the one who have the youngest ones. And they just get it and don't have a lot of expectation going into the friendship. So I think not only do same age group friends seem to be easier to make, because you're just in the same places, but I think moms who are like tried and true moms who have been doing it for a while can.

Rachel (28:42)
Yes.

Jessica Lamb (28:50)
can get it on a different level than your non-mom friends, which can be helpful. And they've been there. So they can be the friend that you're like, hey, is this normal? What's happening? And they can be helpful.

Rachel (28:53)
Yeah.

Yeah, right, like

different functions or different friends. You know, I think another strategy is to, again, if we're going with this theme of, you know, like kind of like regular meeting of the moms or whatever, you can become the regular hub, right? So you can start a book club or cooking club or again, whatever your interests are, you can be the person that starts that and coordinates that. And that is naturally going to attract people that also want to make friends. They're going to be the ones that keep showing up to that.

Jessica Lamb (29:02)
Yeah.

Rachel (29:25)
And that regularity will build stronger relationships.

The other thing I would say is, you know, think about like small gestures of goodwill. be, you know, if you know, like, let's say you're going to go to T-ball or soccer and you have a mom that you've managed to get her phone number and you're going to stop and get coffee. Text her and be like, Hey, I'd love to, I'm stopping for coffee. Do you want anything? And if you don't hear back, just like grab her something. Most people would like get her a vanilla latte. Right. And I think like those things, like psychologically, it makes people like us a little more. And then also just

you know, really paying attention to when we're in these relationships and trying to relationship build with people. I think sometimes we kind of forget some of our basic conversation skills. It's really good to ask people questions about themselves, right? If you find you're talking most of the time, maybe try to flip it around. People love to talk about themselves. If you're a shy person, that's a great skill to have, right? Just ask questions. And then oftentimes when you...

kind of evaluate with people how they felt about that conversation. The person that was talking about themselves was like, I really feel like I got to know that person, even if you didn't tell them anything about yourself. So that can be another great tip, right, to ask questions, be interested, be curious, and then think sort of about that other person's perspective and what they might appreciate. Maybe they'd appreciate if you bring them a coffee or if you bring extra snacks. It makes people like you a little bit more. So just a couple of psychological tricks that you can use as well.

Jessica Lamb (30:41)
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I'm not sure

if you've seen the show Love on the Spectrum on Netflix. So it reminds me of this as well. It's adults with typically, I think the first season's autism, but as the seasons go, they have a wide range of participants, but they essentially want to start dating and they work with a relationship coach. And it's a lot of the same things where she's like re-teaching them these like

Rachel (30:47)
I don't know that I have, no.

Mm-hmm.

Jessica Lamb (31:06)
communication and relationship skills. And then they're like practicing them with their friends and like their family. And so I think my connection is like, you have to do these things over and over to feel more comfortable doing them. And like in this show, you can see that they are like scripting this, the stuff that they're learning, but in each date they go on or each person, they're like, this person didn't like that. They really liked when I did this. So taking

Rachel (31:18)
You do.

Jessica Lamb (31:31)
the experiences that you're having and using it for the next one, I think can be helpful as well.

Rachel (31:35)
Yeah, I really think that mind shift to like, you know, making friends is a skill and like you who knows where you are and you're like your competency, right, but you can get better. And so if there's things you're a little awkward at, that's okay. It's awkward when you're learning. Just keep trying, you're going to get better at it and you're going to make some friends along the way.

Jessica Lamb (31:55)
Yeah, that's great advice. Anything else that you think would be helpful for moms trying to get out there and meet some more mom friends?

Rachel (32:01)
you know, I think that the biggest thing I would say is like, you know, if you feel like you kind of have listened to podcasts like this and you're, you're looking to get out there and then like something's getting in the way and you're not doing it. That is the space where I would think like, honestly, like getting a therapist could help. Right. Because I think it's unique for each person, like what might be getting in the way. but having a therapist and a dedicated person to help you untangle that can be really helpful. and I do think that.

You know, I do think that women that have relationships with other women tend to be happier. So I think that if someone's listening to this and they are feeling like I could never do that, or that sounds really great, but it wouldn't work for me, like go find a therapist because you shouldn't have to sit down in that space. I strongly believe that you could probably have valuable relationships with other people. If you think you're unlikable, there's something broken with you. don't, I

would guess that's maybe more in your head than true, right? Most people are pretty likable once you get to know them. So that would be the piece where I would just say, get yourself a therapist who can help.

Jessica Lamb (33:00)
Yeah. And I,

I have a ton of therapists on this show cause I feel like I really want to break the stigma for people. like, you don't have to go to therapy because you have a quote unquote problem or an issue. think again, in this conversation, you have become a whole new person after having kids and like relearning who you are relearning how to navigate situations from a third party.

Rachel (33:13)
No.

Jessica Lamb (33:27)
can be like someone who doesn't have any skin in the game. Isn't your spouse in tiptoeing a bit. I think it could be helpful to like verbally process what's happening. Maybe have a third party to be like, Hey, have you thought about this? all at the point of like being and feeling better about yourself and being like reconnecting with who you are. so that you're able to have these new friendships.

Rachel (33:49)
Yeah, it's a, having a child is a huge transition. There's also, you know, all the biological, physiological effects of it. And, you know, naturally that affects our wellness on all levels, including our emotional, psychological. and so to your point, you don't have to have, you know, sometimes I think people maybe have this idea that in order to see a therapist, you have to have like, you know, really serious issues and they have an idea of what that might look like.

That's not necessarily the case. People can benefit from therapy just like people benefit from going to see a primary care doctor even when they're not seriously ill, right? Like you can still benefit from it. And if it helps you get to this space where you can have things in your life like valuable, fulfilling relationships, like that can really help enhance your entire life's quality.

Jessica Lamb (34:33)
Yeah.

And I think not doing everything alone is helpful to your overall happiness. think motherhood can be very isolating. Like no one understands what I'm going through. No one gets it. But I think once you get some mom friends, you're like, my gosh, there were more people out there who were going through the same thing as me.

Rachel (34:37)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Totally, and it can make, I often think about like when I had my daughter and like, you know, I've had two children now, right? My daughter back in 2019 and then my son last year. And I often compare in my own mind, like the experience and it was so different with my son, not only because he was a much easier baby, but also just because I had all these friends around me and you know, it made the days.

go fast, right? I remember with my daughter, like the days just lasted so long because it was just me and she was just a baby. She wasn't talking to me and it was lonely and isolating. And then with my son, you know, I'd like go meet my friend for a walk or like friends would just come sit in my house. And it's like the days just went so much faster. They felt really short versus feeling like these things that just stretched out forever. So I think, you know, that's that's on the other side of it. Like if you can

If you can do the hard work of going through these kind of uncomfortable early relationship stages, a lot of times on the other side of it, there is this really nice warm community that you can become part of and you create for yourself.

Jessica Lamb (35:49)
Yeah, absolutely.

And I think the strategies that you gave seem very short-term, but they're all helpful to getting you to those long, more long-term friendships and building that, that elusive village.

Rachel (35:59)
Yeah, those are like the building

blocks that you just like keep repeating and then gradually over time some of the relationships become bigger.

Jessica Lamb (36:06)
Yeah, anything else that you think is helpful to mention?

Rachel (36:09)
I think that's about it. I think we covered it.

Jessica Lamb (36:10)
Okay, cool. So tell people where they can find you social media, website, whatever you'd like to share.

Rachel (36:15)
Yes. So I'm online at mindmadewell.com and on Instagram under the same handle. So mindmade well, we're a small practice right now. It's just me. And there's another therapist, Jessica, who works with me. She's also lovely, also a mom and focuses on similar things. so if you're interested in working with either of us, you're welcome to reach out. we're also sort of dipping our toe and some mom groups and things like that. So keep an eye on the Instagram and reach out if you're interested in any of those things. And thank you for having me, Jessica.

Jessica Lamb (36:40)
Of course, thank you so much for being on. This was great. We'll put all those resources in the show notes for people to see. But thank you so much for being on. I know this will be really helpful to people.

Rachel (36:49)
Thanks Jessica.